My closest neighbor uses his propane turkey fryer to boil down his sap. I cut down a few Tamarack trees to boil my sap. His gets done quicker and goes through a few 20# tanks. Mine cost me my time. I threw this together for this year but have plans for a bigger and an efficient one next year.
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Here is a list of real world give daily power to people DOer guys:
Soichio Honda, Raymond Herrick (Tecumseh), John Lauson, Stephen Foster Briggs & Harold M. Stratton, Ole Evinrude, the Johnson Brothers, John Michael Kohler, Magokichi Yamaoka (Yanmar), Karl Kiekhaefer (Mercury), Ole Evinrude, Genichi Kawakami (Yamaha).
These guys Japaneses, Canadian and American personally ram-rodded their power makers to be able to be individual human scaled used all of the year around in all possible conditions.
30,000 miles traveling around the western US od A 1997-2012 and I only found ONE actual woodgas system maker and ONE charcoal maker who even burnt with wood at home for heating, and used year around their own creations for power.
All of the rest, no matter what their names, their fame’s, their publications and the doctorate letters after their name were hollow men.
Would you trust a cookbook from a person who did not even proof their own recipes? Trust a cook, a chef not willing to subsist on their own creations? You want a Granny-cook to lrom from.
Trust learning from an only fair weather sailor? You want a foaul weather sailor to learn from.
Trust learning only from a sunny day fisherman? You want the guy who fishes year around saying any day fishing is better than a day not fishing.
Trust learning from a road-hunter? The braggart. One lucky elk does not make an elk hunter. The Hunter is the guy get’s an elk each and every year.
ALL of my equipment and systems must work if I work.
I work from 10F, to 100F. Rain. Snow. Sleet and hail.
Here’s short list of woodgaser who do show that they operate year around in the frozen and snow:
Gregg Manning, Johan Liddel, S.E. Werner, Vesa Mikkonen, Dutch John, TrerryL, ArvidO, and Bruce Jackson.
Bruce used to have a neat short youtube up called “Hey Jim!”. He was showing Californian Jim Mason the along with gasoline woodgas was the ONLY buried in snow, frozen fuel possible. IF YOU DESIGNED and built it without water bath filter limitations!
So fair weather woodgasser, wanna-be’s . . . Springs here now.
What idealism, perfection excuses now,eh??
Real simple equationsion. Since we all do use/consume powers each and every day then we should be making some DIY power each and every day too. If you want to claim freedom and independence.
Other wise you are just a sheeple/consumer. Mill lions ans million of those.
Just a social class, scale climbing, faming geek.
The first can live in any city - dependent, sheeeple . . always.
The other you have to go where the geek action and publishing are done best. Gore-like jetting around.
DYI power making is about the individual making for themselves and their responsibilities.
Too few actually do this.
Cudo’s to those who do.
Wayne Kieth and family are quite and example of this.
Steve Unruh - making a bit of power every day now, come hail, high water or the coming of the WA State Dept of Ecology
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I’m sorry but as usual, I don’t understand how you came to this conclusion.
Gregg Manning a very knowledgeable gasifier, who built a gasifier furnace but I have never heard of him driving on a daily basis. JO has a gasification boiler and heats his house exclusively with it.
Johan Linddel, built a gasified car and drove around Sweden and then got a couple of tractors running on woodgas. Does he drive that car daily and does he farm with the woodgas tractors. Here I might mention WK
S.E Warner, has built a few units for stationary and mobile use. Is he driving his van on a daily basis.
With out going on, I hope you get my point. All of these people have built something but do they use it on a regular basis and what else have they done since. There are many people on here who have built a WK vehicle and drive it daily even to commute to required jobs or converted small equipment to charcoal and use them for specific purposes, even small scale logging.
Why do the people you mention deserve such aka lades?[quote=“SteveUnruh, post:79, topic:2321”]
So fair weather woodgasser, wanna-be’s . . . Springs here now.What idealism, perfection excuses now,eh??
[/quote]
And then others are shut out because they aren’t part of the good 'ol boys.TomC
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I’m proud to be a “wood gasser wanna be.”
It could be worse. I could be a politician wanna be.
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Yeah DonM, I keep eating this DIY made elecrtical ice cream each and every day now.
3.3 kW/hrs to up to 6.0 kW/hrs depending on the balance of needs for low 400-500 watt power for 10-12 hours. Versus the 2 hours of 6000 watts blast.
AND versus how much systems heats I need and can utilize.
And this all for my one GGE daily commitment.
My point of this topic was this a can be done NOW, TODAY on as small as a 100’x100’ suburban lot.
Learn to live on less not-Grid electricity now while still on Grid. “S-o-m-e-d-a-y” perfections/idealisms are the distractions from ever getting anything done in real life…
The song you know: “When Someday . . . Never comes”.
Take Actions Forward this day.
Steve Unruh
Tom Collins once more you prove that you cannot read for content but just reactively read, and jerk.
Read back and I said that these guys DID not let sub-freezing, ice and snow stop them. And Showed Out Doing it in ice, freezing, snows.
You the one always seeming to insist that unless a persons woodgasing is not road traveling it is invalid.
Get your panties out of a bunch and start seeing what other DO-Users put up as straight and valid and woodgas relevent too.
I am now again thoroughly disgusted here with jabber do-notting here on the DOW.
I’ll report back in in three months on my higher weather temperature results.
I do actually still read a bit those who have proven to me that they are actually personally proof using their systems.
And this has nothing to do whether the system is a WK or not. None of mine are.
Yep, and this does make for a pretty small handfull of fellows indeed.
You buy your way in by DOing/Using. All Doer/Users welcomed.
If I want energy coulda’s, woulda’s, shoulda’s cheerleading, politicalizing I’ll go to the coffee shop/bar, or any family get together. At least there I can get fed and watered for the ear bending. And do some actual nose to noseing to show just how life long decades involed serious that I am about Do-It-Yourself power making for personal uses.
S.U.
Hello All.
I’ve had, and been running my new Yamaha EF2800i inverter-generator since this last Tuesday.
About 50 running hours now. Into the second break-in oil change now.
Interesting results. Some real good surprises. And only one disappointment.
To go back over WHY I am going this route now.
I wanted a system that would have easy modifications/repairs access versus the suitcase units. Four bolts and I had the valve cover off. Four screws and dropped down the control panel for backside access’s. Two more bolts and off with the fuel tank for full top access’s. Then just seven bolts away from having the cylinder head off.
I wanted a larger system able to fully supply a normal US/Canada 20 amp household circuit when on pump/spec grades of motor fuels. The Honda/Yamaha 2000 suitcases will not do this.
And have at least 1500 watts on woodgas. 2000 watt suitcases units would be only ~800 watts electrical on char/woodgas.
On woodgas I wanted an electrical system I’d be able to woodfuel prep/supply out of our own timber lots on no more that 45 minutes a day wood fuel prepping labor…
These have been my base requirements since I went woodgasing-for-home-use-electricity in 2008.
Basically for my non-solar viable part of the world: a home PV solar sized system but with an IC engine base input.
OK. The following numbers are on pump grade non-ethanol 87 RON gasoline.
For woodgas fueling use 20 pounds of prepped, dryed wood chunks or screened wood chips for the consumprions. I can actually do this on less than 16 pounds per gallon equivenecies but that requires a lot of expienrces based heat/energy recycling.
For woodgas to gasoline fuels Power-Out comparisons, use 50% less to be safe. I have documented and been vidioed getting on small systems up 72-75% power equivalencies. Again that requires a lot of experienced based intake/mixers/IG timing modifications that end up being specific to each individual IC engine system.
Handcrafted, individualized, in other words.
ON GASOLINE this EF2800i with a 300 watt electrical loading go for 7.25 hours on one US gallon of gasoline.
2500 watt electrically loaded the manual says 6.7 hours for a full tank of 2.55 US gallons. 1/4 loading of 625 watt electrical 14.7 hours running time on that full 2.55 US gallon tank full.
My first take home dealer filled up run of ~2.0 US gallons at a 500 watt loading went 12.3 hours. On a NEW unbroken in engine. On unknown probably 15% ethanol gasoline. Makes for plus ~5% More fuel use with the ethanol adding.
Broken in now today one of the surprises was I was able to combined resistive, inductive, electronically load up this 2500/2800 watt system to a constant 3525 watts. And it did hold this loading without too much voltage or frequency drooping. And the system did not AC output overload sense, and shut down. Amazing.
This unit on the variable rpm Economy switch setting settles in at a 2820 RPM base. The Honda EU2000i was 3300 RPM with Eco on.
Added electrical loading past ~1500 watts and the Yamaha RPM steps in RPM. Step by step all of the way to 3560 RPM.
Economy switch off the base rpm is 3560-80. Up to ~2500 watts electrical loading. Added electrical loading above that and the RPM raises to as high as 3860.
The Honda was 4300 RPM unlaoded Eco-Off to a AC output shut down electrical overloading at 2000-2200 watts.
The one disappointment is this 23 amp rated Yamaha will not run my 15 amp; 120vac (20 amp circuit ) air compressor.
The Yamaha has a slower engine speed change response time versus the Honda and operating at still 500 RPM less gets caught in the single cylinder, four-strokes nemesis of 600 degrees of crankshaft rotation not making power. The engine chugs out loosing too much rpm trying to run the air compressor.
Something about 40 pounds of added flywheel; a second cylinder’s additional 120 degrees of power contributing; or more RPM with time closer spaced power pulses would solve.
Ha! I be working on an RPM override for the stepper motor system on this Yamaha
I do not want to make this unit heavier!
66 pounds and I can still solo pick it up and carry it around to needs.
This is to be a “No Batteries Required” home AC power system.
And the IC engine heats has many needed places to be put to use here on the farm home place.
More later if there is an interest.
Steve Unruh
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Always an interest Steve!
We’ll keep the keyboarding to a minimum, and just enjoy your field reports.
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Well we are getting a second year of unusually warm days of NO-RAIN mid-Spring weather.
Late June in early May. “California come visiting” Still Washington in-mountains May though with killing frosts, and the need for a morning woodstove fire the last two mornings.
Some of my lessons of now a from thrid 85F day in the last 15 days is the little Honda 1600 watter cannot keep up with the three big chest freezers in this warm of conditions. Keep tripping overload when random timing had all three freezers cycling on at the same time. Made three parially filled freezers into two suffed freezers. Helps. Hours for the one gallon gasoline in the Honda dropped from 12.5 hours at an outside 40-65F. To only ~7 1/2 to 8 hours at 75-85F.
AND over an outside 75F I’ve learned to NOT put up all four pieces of sound damping plywood around the Yamaha. Gets too damn hot underneath for the metal fuel tank. Two pieces only allowing for a cross ventilation. Ha! wet stove wood stacked loosely across the outlet side dries nice, quickly in one day-session.
Unsing the larger Yamaha 2800 I can also get 7 1/2 hours on for these freezers on my one gallon gasoline in-the-heat.
I need a daily refrigeration coverage time of from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM.
Running the Yamaha 1 1/2 hours ON. 2 hours Off. Then repeat stretches-out that gallon for the full 12 hours needed.
Sigh, Be tough to live woodgas generate for an engine cycling like that.
Since these conditions ARE solar-days . . . maybe some PV in my future on this freezers shed.
Ha! My Grid power head meter hasn’t budged a single kW/h since May 1st to these buildings!
A WIN.
Steve Unruh
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Hey Steve, just wondering how many hours you are getting up to on these little machines now and if you have any idea of their life expectancy.
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Hey Jim
~400 hours on the Honda 100cc “2000” now.
167 hours on the larger Yamaha 171cc “2800”.
I only bought one RPM/Tachometer, and have swapped it to the Yamaha semi-permanently now.
Life on air cooled outdoor four-strokes.
I have a Scotts/JD rider mower with a Kohler Command single 17.5 hp still runs fine, full power; no smoke, no oil consumption that the hour meter quit on at 1600 hours. We used for another 2 years at ~200 hours a year. So has to be at last 2000 hours. Mower use up untill the front wheel falling of due to worn axles; and the mower decks will not take one more repair.
I have an exact same model mower that I (wife volunteered me as “yardman”) used for a quadriplegic fellow for three years. THEN I could do the oil six years never changed enough, oil changes, catching never up’s. He insisted that I use up his 3 cases of quarts 10W-40 Pennzoil standard oil only.
415 hours and it is down on power. Smokes on cold staring up’s. Consumes oil between the (now mine) 100 hour oil changes.
I bought this machine as a spare parts machine for $300. USD at his after passing estate/yard sale.
Variable speed and loads breaking-in on non-synthetic “mineral” oil makes a big long-life starting out difference.
5 hour first oil change gets manufacturing and breaking-in hard particles OUT before premature wear and damage makes a big life-long difference too.
Fully broken-in then switching to the best 0W-40, 5W-50 synthetic oils makes a big difference in year-around use for long-life too. Some say seasonal changes of straight weights 20 and 30 are better without the modifiers in them. Maybe on watercooled. Air cooled temp range daily too much in my opinion.
Being willing to dump out this expensive oil at no longer than 100 hours; or combustion gases’particles/acids coloring contamination intervals makes a big long-life difference too.
This Honda; This Yamaha; it is only a once a week at fuel ran out; tool-less; lift whole unit; pouring out the old oil. Dump-in a large mounthed marked quart bottle filled to 400 ml for the Honda, 600 ml for the Yamaha of pre-transferred out of a Wal-mart/ Bi-Mart 5 quart jug of synthetic.
Only “tool” is a little funnel and a cotton rag.
3-5 minutes, tops.
Another operator controlled circumstance for long life is warming up under no loading until at least piston/rings/cylinder walls warming to stable dimensions. WILL vary with outside temps hugely.
These generators getting this. I only apply the electrical loading until after the crank-case/metal oil necks feel warm-to-touch.
Rider lawn mowers gets this. Walk behind mowers gets this.
10 hours a year 7.5 B&S engined rototiller does not get this warming up. Pull-to-start-then-GO.
~100 hours a year 30 ton hydraulic log splitter with a 10.5 hp B&S, gets a lot of winter use in the woodshed of only 20 minutes (one wheel barrow and kindling box full) of pull-to-start-then-GO running too.
These both now starting up blue-puff smoke. 12 years, maybe only 150 hours on the tiller. 5 years, maybe only 500 hours on the woodsplitter.
Same breaking-in and synthetic oils used on these. Bad B&S’s? Not really. These both the Intek I/C engines with cast iron bores. These both ran always 3600 RPM all-out for the use-needs-demands.
These other engines loaded running at a lower 2400 to 3300 RPM.
I am shooting for 8000 hours engine life on the Honda and Yamaha generators.
At most 16 hours a day for a year = 5840 annually.
Actually only doing 12 hours at most a day now = 4380 hours annually.
The Honda unit can use many engine parts off of the two same family Honda enegined walk behind mowers we have. 100 cc Honda horizontal shaft engines on e-bay/Amazon all of the time. Craigs list too. $100 well used to ~$399 new outright.
Yamaha 171cc engines $299 new; and the larger same block sized 200cc version $399 new at three different mail-order sources.
These would all give the new crankshaft, connecting rod, piston and rings, new cylinder head with new valves for an “in-frame rebuild”.
For me the key was to always have TWO alternative possibilities workable on hand all of the time.
IF I was PV solar dependent: I’d want two of everything critical to be able to have at least half capability, come what may.
This is what too many miss on WayneK’s personal vehicle woodgas systems:
double and triple by-pass capabilities for at least some woodgas power.
And all backed up by still gasoline capable.
Single point failures YOU BUILT-IN will sooner versus later, suck big time!
Have three ways to open a can of stew, needs must!
She may be gone on you visiting a sister or her mother just to wake you up to realities.
REgards
Steve Unruh
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Wow Steve Lots of great info there. Never would have guessed they would ever last that long. I was thinking they are designed for limited use such as a week or two a year camping, fish houses and power outages where they only see 50 hours a year. 8 to ten years then thrown away get a new one. Seen many riding mowers never hit the 500 hour mark- Me I get them out of the scrap and finish them off. most expensive ever was $50, still out back parked due to flat tires. got one out of the junk with good tires and moved on. It seems the better they look{newer} the worse they smoke and knock. Makes me feel better about the onnan commercial 4500 I’m resurrecting now.It has 32xx hours on it from phone co and I was worried it may not be worth the $250 ac voltage regulator Valves seem to be getting hard to come by for these old flat heads now. Fleet mechanic said this one just had a valve job not long before taken out of service. I guess even with all them hours it will still out last a new scream -o-matic. Even with 3 here still none will make clean power, 2 1800 rpm Onnans and a Lincoln welder. Kind of frustrating but still nothing invested and all do run now.
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My Ryobi 1800 Watt generator endured 25-50 hours/week since the first of the year. Mostly on the 50 side. The last three weeks we have been enjoy considerable sun.
I have found these machines don’t like subzero weather. After a half hour to 45 minutes, it will shut down. I had one in the house that was warm and frequently changed them out. I believe the engine is too small to stay warm.
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Bill, obviously you need to start piling on plywood (and foam board), not for sound, but heat retention!
Morning BIllS
In the user manuals for Stihl and Huskavarna commercial grade chainsaws is the instructions how for 100% of the time below freezing winter use to change an air inlet by-pass port to pull carburetor air from off the surface of the muffler area. These do get used in Arctic conditions.
Carbureted gasoline IC engine tend to frost up the carb tinny-tiny air bled-mixer jets in the coldest part of the winters.
Bugger to diag this as often even just stopped sitting the engine in a closed hood vehicle application with “defrost” these frost block jet and it will fire up then and run fine. . . . until re-frosting/blocking back-up. PNW wetside. this happens even above freezing 34-39F.
Brian is correct.
The simple four 45 degree leaning peices of plywood I’ve benn using for sound moderation was fine when in the 30’s, 40’s, evne up to the 60’sF.
Hitting sometimes unseasonably 80F now I shocked myself with the bigger Yamaha open frame unit checking just how TOO damn hot it was getting under the “seemed” open enough lean-to plywood covers. It has a metal gasoline fuel tank! Getting Scary Hot! “Boom-Boom” is a rep I am trying to live down.
I’m only using just the two pieces tee-peed now as a rain/sun cover to let it ventilate better.
Next cold season try this as a snow cover and to keep in some of the heats.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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I used to frame houses on gas gensets and while working in a large sub. The boss unloaded the genny right next to a double bunk of plywood sheething. To block the noise. At 645am we fired up and went to work cutting rafters for a hipset looked over a while later to see what had happened to the power and found both bunks of plywood and the genny on fire. Some one never found out who but some person had turned the genny so the exhaust blew directly on the plywood. We lost the genny and both bunks of wood. I built a fire proof three sided box out of osb and 5/8 fireproof drywall. Very heavy but blocked the noise and let the heat out. We used it all summer but left it there when we moved to a new devopment.
Jesse
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Well my 32 day old/owned Yamaha EF2800i inverter-generator just hour meter passed 318 hours this morning.
On it’s fourth since new, oil change. Dealer Fill → 5 hours → 50 hours → then at 150 hours to a synthetic 0W-40 → then Now this morning to again synthetic 0W-40.
I am a bit behind expected hours usage as we have a visiting house guest for a bit. A gal wanting to Tiny-House Off-grid soon. Gave her a day hearing the wife’s quieter Honda 2000 run and power.
Ha! Then two days of the Harbor Freight Chinese made clone of the Yamaha 2-stoke unit. Was copy of a Yamaha EF700 I think.
And doing this real world using has had some eye openers.
I never expected that this 700/900 watt Yammerclone could power both of the old chest freezers.
I did expect that it could power one of them. NOT.
NOT from a setting 12 hours without power re-chilling down.
Once chilled back down with Grid power it could maintain one freezer or the other at a time. But then only after I bypassed the thermal circuit breaker. It is too sensitive for the units capability. I would walk away thinking things were fine. Look back and my 3 watt green LED AC functioning light would be out. The unit’s thermal breaker popped out. Finnaly just by-passed that then easier to hear the from unloaded engine burbble to louder loaded engine noise to from a distance and know freezer was being powered.
On the larger, better Honda/Yamaha units there is no inverter gnerator sound change to know. Why I went to the 200 lumen’s LED green light.
Sigh. Then changing back to the Yamaha 2800 I found times that I would have an on unit AC status output green light. MY green see-from-a-distance light was out. ???
Inverter generator unit’s GFI outlet was popped with an almost impossible to see orange fault light. Those freezers were not receiving power at all.
Real life experiences like these are why I am insistent that ONLY by real world using daily to stumble-bum learn ALL of the practicals will I ever hold as valid anyones “woodgas” premisis’s.
Armchairing does not cut it.
Lab-geeking does not cut it.
3 minute youtube ohh-rahhs does not cut it.
S.U.
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Steve did I read that right, 318 hours in 32 days and behind in expected run time? Nearly 10 hours per day! WOW. Must be a fuel sipper. Day 26 without grid here. Many lessons learned. Hope to learn more fast! Loosing ground every where you can imagine. Freezer temps, Battery capacity, and going through gasoline faster than I can go get it. Of my original 3 generators I thought I had none are operable, fourth a 3600 rpm scream o matic Colman power mate 4000 watt is overkill for refrigerator running and battery charging. Fifth a 10000 watt screamer is overkill for shop and home tough to load up to keep off the governor only used for welding and running my big compressor. I need to add more air storage capacity so the generator has something to do while I am welding. Size does matter. One size does not fit all. Takes at least 4 sizes to be efficient. More batteries and another form of charging is a must. Solar for the fridge is a must, hardest to deal with. Going to use my chest freezer for a fridge for now. Looking into a very basic solar set up for fridge. Thought about a propane fridge and will keep my eyes pealed for one but that is just another dependency. Nearly finished with another charcoal gasifier and charging unit. 2 more 1800 rpm generators to go get both 4000 waters really wanting a 6500 Onan comercial and a Honda 2000 inverter. Time to sell some hot rod junk and get some useful things.
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Jim - For what it’s worth, I looked into refrigerator / freezer efficiency recently.
Contrary to my expectations, propane fridges are very inefficient.
If I remember correctly, the issue is that ammonia cycle machines are inherently inefficient relative to state change machines (liquid to gas, and back again).
That said, “efficient” is a relative term.
If you have a hundred tons of free firewood, then what is “efficient?”
PS: My take-away from this is that, in most circumstances, it would be most efficient to run a generic “energy-star” refrigerator / freezer from a modest solar array and battery bank, with gassifier/generator backup.
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I agree 100% That is why I am going to try my chest freezer running minimally until I get a few panels and charge controller.
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