# Cryogenics vs Sygas Separation Looks Good
**URL:** http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910
**Category:** Woodgas Science
**Created:** [July 1, 2024, 12:01pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910 "2024-07-01T12:01:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2024, 12:01pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/1 "2024-07-01T12:01:15Z")
Hi shoot this down. Cryogenic gas separation looks really useful. Too good to be true. The Good News is that the compressors are really small. After that things look good because you get AC like operations with easy drop out separation and tanking. Im tar and particulate aware. You recycle Helium and temp exchange to the other gasses.
Thats looks promising
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### Author:  [@spaco](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/spaco)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/2 "2024-07-01T17:25:00Z")
How much energy does it take? Is there an overall fuel gain?
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### Author:  [@davidswalec](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/davidswalec)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/3 "2024-07-01T17:33:45Z")
have you studied cryogenics? Simply put everything is below -252 F. That means an insane amount of cooling. If you check out the basics of refrigeration, one you go below 40F the energy consumed is huge. You may want to inform us why you think it would be necessary to go this route, you may see something we don’t.
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### Author:  [@madflower69](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/madflower69)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 5:44am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/4 "2024-07-02T05:44:42Z")
-252F is still above the temp for liquid nitrogen.
The process is used a lot for helium production. So where do i get one and how much is it? And what are the power requirements and what is it’s production of helium?
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### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 11:35am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/5 "2024-07-02T11:35:12Z")
HELIUM - 475F
HYDROGEN - 435F
NITROGEN - 346F
CARBON MONOXIDE - 337F
METHANE - 295F
CARBON DIOXIDE -110F
Things look good. cryogenic distillation is an established practice it’s not experimental. it looks like LN will do the work. That looks good now for the other part.
this us a shopping page
[https://cryoindustries.com/whatshot.html](https://cryoindustries.com/whatshot.html)
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### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 11:35am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/6 "2024-07-02T11:35:34Z")
[https://cryoindustries.com/whatshot.html](https://cryoindustries.com/whatshot.html)
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### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 11:42am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/7 "2024-07-02T11:42:19Z")
If you process a ton of wood in the gadifier you get $500 a ton if you get the hydrogen out you make $4000 a ton.
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### Author:  [@r\_wesseling](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/r_wesseling)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/8 "2024-07-02T15:05:37Z")
Biogas may be similar. Back in the 90s I looked into what it would take to compress it to liquid. Back then it was 8% of the energy contained in the biogas.
Rindert
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### Author:  [@madflower69](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/madflower69)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/9 "2024-07-02T17:13:00Z")
I haven’t gone through the whole product portfolio, but this is interesting. From the 3 in 1 system pdf way at the bottom. I think @Matt was looking at removing Nitrogen with PSA oxygen units.
“Optional Nitrogen GasGenerator
The optional Nitrogen gas generator extracts nitrogen gas from the air
using PSA (Pressure Swing Adsorber) technology providing higher purity
nitrogen gas than membrane type systems. It supplys a continuous stream
of clean dry nitrogen gas with consistent purity”
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### Author:  [@Matt](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/Matt)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/10 "2024-07-02T17:28:05Z")
I think the water gas process can also be improved further with the addition of removing the nitrogen as well. From what I have found online the CFX is capable of producing 30% of the gas energy density direct from the water cracking alone.
I have also proposed a system to GM / Honda for a closed loop system with a SOFC employed. Pure oxygen feeds the fuel cells cathbode side and then the excess then feeds oxidation process in the gasifier. The pre heated steam produced from the H side of the fuel cells then is injected into the gasifier for water shift back to H2. This will require a prsurized injector to inject additional water mist and atomization for jet / nozle cooling and H2 boost. But this will need precise control.
10 gallons of charcoal in the CFX RTR will net around 5 kW/hours net energy out with an ICE. A closed loop system with SOFC could potentially have a net output of around 25 kW/hours on the same volume / wieght of charcoal.
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### Author:  [@madflower69](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/madflower69)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/11 "2024-07-02T18:04:18Z")
What happens if you dribble hydrogen peroxide in, instead of water? That already has a free H atom. The 3% solutions is like a dollar a quart from meijer, but it might be enough to see a difference. It is used to disinfect cuts and scrapes. Higher concentrations are available but cheap and easy is the way to start.
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### Author:  [@Matt](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/Matt)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/12 "2024-07-02T18:10:46Z")
Im not sure, The reaction is a carbon / oxygen reaction. So what is happening is the carbon is reacting with the oxygen and ripping it out of the host water molecule leaving the H2 behind. So basically I think it will just produce a higher amount of CO or it may go the other way and just produce CO2 and that would not be desirable.
But also note you cant get pure H2O2. The stuff you buy over the counter is only 3% at best and if you could make pure; you wouldnt need a gasifier in the first place. lol
Edit: Yeah dont google pure H2O2 unless you want to be put on the “list”
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### Author:  [@madflower69](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/madflower69)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/13 "2024-07-02T18:37:59Z")
I am already on several ‘lists’, but probably not that specific one 🙂
I think i would try a quart and see if you notice any subtle difference. Because the extra hydrogen, is highly reactive, and you are kind of starving the reaction of oxygen, and possibly it creates alcohol groups like -OH
The other product of a water split would be ozone or O3, and that is also highly reactive, but I would think that might produce CO2 over CO.
I would have to look at the reactions a bit closer. 🙂 But it is just a test, it wouldn’t ever be like this as part of a product.
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### Author:  [@Matt](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/Matt)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/14 "2024-07-02T18:51:40Z")
You can get 30 / 40% Hydrogen Peroxide on Amazon. I would not waste time with the stuff you buy from the store. But yeah it would be interesting to see what happens. Maybe Koen could do some testing and get some data with his test equipment.
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### Author:  [@Matt](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/Matt)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/15 "2024-07-02T18:55:11Z")
Id actually rather try ethanol as there is an oxygen component there. Could potentially be a way to make ethanol as a fuel more viable for off grid power applications…
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### Author:  [@madflower69](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/madflower69)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2024, 1:53am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/16 "2024-07-03T01:53:13Z")
I don’t think it is going to work unless the impurities or temperature affect the reaction. It basically uses carbon as a catalyst to reduce the h2o2 to h2o and o2.
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### Author:  [@Matt](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/Matt)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2024, 2:12am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/17 "2024-07-03T02:12:31Z")
The heat weakens the H2O bond. The carbon is the catylist and the reaction is with the Oxygen / Carbon forming CO. You can mix Ethanol with water and this will give a lower freezing point. I would never run a 100% ethanol lol. Yeah POOF!! The Oxygen / Carbon reaction should still work and break off the Oxygen bond in the hydrocarbon chains.
Edit: Yeah after the Oxygen is ripped out it should produce CH4 or C2H5.
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### Author:  [@KristijanL](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/KristijanL)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2024, 5:18am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/18 "2024-07-03T05:18:23Z")
Matt, unfortunaly thats not how it goes. Ethanol will first oxidise (burn) in the oxigen rich enviroment in the oxidation zone. Its byproducts water and CO2 will then be reduced down to H2 and CO.
Ay kind of catalitic reduction on a noticable scale shuld happen injecting in the reduction zone but l dubt thats gonna be any good, cooling things down there…
The peroxide thing l thod about trying many times but never got to it yet. Couple problems here too. Diluted stuff wont do much and the 30% stuff is expensive and most of all dangerous. Almost anything seem to be able to catalise the breakdown of peroxide, specialy metals. The reactions are full of steam, oxigen and heat. Plus the peroxide causes burns on skin on its own…
But this sayd, the woodgas produced using this method shuld be wery potent (low N2) since peroxide provides the pure oxigen. As a matter of fact, l once concentrated the 30% stuff and it you culd submerge a lit match in it and it wuld continue glowing, real wird… so it wuld probably sustain gasification without any incoming air - 0% nitrogen!
Edit: Also the oxigen atom in peroxide is different thain oxigen, so once freed with peroxide being broken down its actualy way more reactive thain regular oxigen.
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### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2024, 10:37am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/19 "2024-07-03T10:37:58Z")
> **[Helium Logistics - Gardner Cryogenics](https://www.gardnercryo.com/helium-logistics/)**
>
> As featured in gasworld US edition—Founded in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, in its almost 60 years of business, Gardner Cryogenics has produced more than 1,900 cryogenic tanks, the first of which is still operational today. Specialised in developing...
This company already makes liquid nitrogen and ships it.
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### Author:  [@PDManske](http://forum.driveonwood.com/u/PDManske)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2024, 11:12am UTC](http://forum.driveonwood.com/t/cryogenics-vs-sygas-separation-looks-good/7910/20 "2024-07-03T11:12:53Z")
this might be complicated because all these different gases have different psi’s when they’re at boiling temp anyway liquid nitrogen is at 300 PSIG you have to calculate all these and then make a vessel that’s going to hold all that pressure
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