Ah good you found this DouglasP.
Welcome abound the good lifeship Woodgas.
If you put Diesel Engine in the Search box on the LH side bar you will also bring up over 15 other topics where this has been touched on.
Woodgas fuel supplementing of diesel comression ignited engines has been done a lot going clear back to German government and industrial and bus/truck big 2-stroke engines back in the late 1930’s.
Pictures of this in the WWII Gasifiers section here.
Most recent documented work has been in India in the 1980’s into the 90’s. Some obscure Chinese research out there too. Before these there was some government sponsored well documented dedicated work in Sweden with a farm tractor and a delivery truck. Some 3-4 year to last year recent down in California at All Power Labs location work also.
You are correct that fuel(S!)/air/speed with variable loads controlS has proven to be the most difficult problem.
When done because of heavy oil fuel shortage abandoned quickly when those fuels became available.
With a diesel fueled cycle you only have to control the fuel quantify and the timing of the fuel injection.
With a spark ignited gasoline/propane/methane/woodgas fueled engine you have to independently control the air, the fuelgas and the timing of the spark.
Woodgas supplementing a diesel compression ignition is not like relatively easy fogging in supplemental pure dense refined 100% HC propane or methane. Woodgas at best only has 40% of the composite fuel gas as combustibles - the rest is inert gases and free soots.
Woodgas as an 80% fuel component you then have to individually now control the air, now TWO different fuel streams and the diesel injection timing.
Because of now compression limitations to 17 to 1 for the woodgas fuel so it will not pre-detonate AND now the engine having to suck against an air throttle restriction (have to now control the air for the woodgas useable A/F ratio AND create a suction to pull the woodgas through the hearth and filter rectrictions) you just lost two of the three reasons diesel CI engines are more efficient than SI engines.
The India developers found that they could elaborately vacuum/mechanically set up systems to control all now FOUR factors. Later they did this electronically. Thier biggest problems reported were damaging engine run-a-way overspeeding (same found at APL) at engine load shed off conditions (large electrical consumer suddenly shutting off and transmission shifting points) along with severe damaging exhaust backfiring.
Later still you can see the lightbulb went off and Cummins-India and the Practash engine companies there just started suppling compression reduced, magneto and ignition distributor diesel based block converted engines for dedicated woodgas (“Bio-mass”) and methane (“Bio-Gas”) useage.
Then back to only three factors to control.
This is how the industrial IC engine company Jenbacher/GE had done it all along.
Oh yes. In the past 4 years I acquired two different specialized diesel engines with the sole purpose to woodgas 80% fuel them on a CI. Then I correspond and read of those who had done it, thier problems encountered and work-a-round solutions. Too complex. Then planned out spark converting them. Still too complex and a shame to waste of two fine diesel engines. Just went back to normal IC spark ignition engines and no longer have to worry about trashing an expensive, hard to replace injector pump and onjector from too low of cooling liquid fuel flow. The problem the Swedes had on their engines after a few hundred hours. And now I can multi fuel on gasoline, propane and methane also.
Hi Jim
Sorry i must have forgot you
The manual is MIT professional edu.program
date is july 2004
coarse #2.615
If you can’t find it send me your mail address and i’ll ship this one to you
I probably won’t use it any more if i go back to the gov I’ll have to get a refresher coarse
It’s pretty involved it explains the reason some CI engines have more compression then others
small bore/stroke engines loose more heat thru the walls and head so it may or may not really have more heat it’s not a one rule fits all
Anyway your welcome to the manual
Sorry again i forgot to respond
Tom
Hi Jim
I have been doing a lot of reading up on diesel gasification, both Victory gasworks and Trillion gasifiers both say they can run a Diesel engine with out modifications on wood gas.
Just search youtube on trillion gasification and you will find a lot more videos.
Most of the engines seam to be turbo charged and running constant loads, water pumps or big generators.
Thanks
Patrick
Hey PatrickJ.
I actually worked in the VictoryGasWorks Developement shop for a couple of years. More than any one thing I was Steve the Engine Guy.
To fuel a diesel on woodgas the compression ratio has to be below 17/1 to prevent loaded pre-ignition in the cylinder gas explosion events. Well right there that eliminates 90% of modern diesels and only a percent of the old lower compression diesels are possible. Then they cannot have rotary injector pumps; even many inline injector pumps proven to need added on modification to the fuel bypassing at the least to cut down on the low diesel fuel flow now well dicumented overheating and accelerated wear issues. The individual unit types injectors systems seem to be the easiest to control and accommodate. So even more diesel engine types eliminated. And you really do not want to run normal spark engine allowable filtered woodgas through a close fitting GM/Eaton rotary lobe blower for long. So out with all of the GM 2-stoke blower pressurized diesels out there. Or onto to unnecessary 3rd and 4th stage expensive elaberate woodgas filteration.
Now that seems to be constant load thing is true - changing loads has severe engine overspeed problems on load shed offs especially by going rich on woodgas and exhaust back firing. So more mechanical or electronic controls needed added to be able to quickly slam the woodfuel on and off or add exhaust air to dillute and cool. Documented.
Then on the turbo’s. Most do not like at all to have suction on the inlet side. Pulls cooling/lubricating oil past the turbo shaft seals - the diesel will love running on this heavy oil “fuel” - back to an engine over speed problem. Documented. So IF you are going to engine suction draw safe the gasifier system as 99% do then you have to change out the turbo for one able to handle suction. OR you can have the whole gasifier system either pressure blown or external of the engine sucked with the woodgas then mildly pressure delivered to the engine like is done with LPG and NG gasious fuel supplemetaion system. Forst off will take a few kW/me or kW/electrical to power this now constant operating high flow capable gasifier blower system. And then the varying fuelgas needs NOT THEN being matched directly by the engine itself, but now having to be calculated and matched metered will need a whole 'nother system developed, built and added on to control the acutal delivered woodgas flow.
Ha! Ha! Made my biggest woodgas “KaBooms!!!” every were working on pressure delivering!
And I haven’t even covered the combustion/ignition/timing issue differences beteeen the different IDI and DI diesel systems out there.
Anyhow it gets alot more complicated quickly to be acual daily load varing useable than just stuffing a woodgas hose down the air inlet on a diesel engine
Bottom line is the actual experienced diesel engine companies with paid development engineers fueling with woodgas like Wakashaw, IHC, Caterpillar, Cummins/India, Pratash, Mitsubishi and GE-Jenbacher all just spark converted, lowered the CR’s into the 13/1 to 15/1 range on their diesel block based engines for woodgas to get around all of this extra needed development and expense and added multiple systems maintance.
Yeah I watched your Trillion Gasifiers video.
Lots of ooh-rahh videos out there. Cameras are cheap and Internet vidoe requires no other proof or “the rest of the story” results like peer publishing. I’d want to see anything after a minimum of 500 hours variable load run time. Then 5000 hours of across seasons annual results like all of the mainline engine companies will supply on thier spark converted woodgas fueled setups.
Just can’t seem to get this particular Internet myth killed no matter how many actual done-it, tried-it documented written references I’ve put up. Sigh.
If it ever sounds too good to be True - then it ain’t - True that is.
Hi Steve
I have just found your reply.
So you are saying in a nut shell, you can add wood gas to a diesel but the injectors will over heat ?
If its turboed It will eventually errode the intake impeller of the turbocharger or blower and or suck the oil out of the penstock .
Then there is a timing issue as well !
I contacted Trillion in Singapore, thinking I would import their units for the friend of mine farming in Zambia.
They assured me that a diesel would run perfectly fine on pilot diesel injection ignition and wood gas.
So in your experience its a load of BS ?
I’m inclined to believe you, you are not trying to sell me 8 gasifiers!!
O.K. Patrick one at a time.
The actual diesel injector is inserted with direct contact into the cylinder head and protuding in some way into the hot combustion chamber or a combustion chamber connected pre-chamber. At normal diesel engine idle not much engine cylinder head heat produced and not much cooling diesel fuel flow needed to suppy. High engine load on deisel; then high volumn of diesel fuel flow supplied to the injector to fuel the engine and injector heat remove. Low “idle” amounts of diesel injector flowing with HOT fully loaded cylinder head temperatures documented DID cause problems with the 70’s Swedes projects, the 80’s,90’s in India projects. They had to modify to incease the actual injector bypassed fuel flows to help cool the injectors to reduce accelerated injector mechanical wear, heat warpage and seals failures.
The actual diesel engine companies with professional paid engineers measured THIS problem challenge along with other found needed adaptive durabilty/cost factors and all decided to just ALL go with spark converted compression adapted engines when they were direct engine system suppliers for producer gas systems. Thier name/reputations were on the line.
Woodgas most certainly CAN be turbocharge boosted. Noboby done it has complained about increased impellor/turbine wear.
You have any old many hours gasoline or diesel turbo’s engines around in some working application? Ones that have worn the turbo shaft seals now constantly drooling oil out the air in snorkel? OK with the engine running and loaded into turbo boost range restict the air in side enough to produce some negative pressure on the inlet side. Now watch how much oil you will suck out of those turbo bearings! IF a diesel careful of engine oil fueled speed run-a-way. Have an inlet strangle plate handy!
Engine sucking a gasifier system you WILL be doing this inlet side negative pressure operating 100% of the time or you will not be getting any woodgas produced to the turbo to go to the engine. So as the Finn Vesa Makinen here on the DOW posted up from direct woodgasing experiences you need a turbo that has oil bearing seals of a type, unworn, that CAN take this woodgas system negetive pressure on the inlet side.
Now since obviously I, both VesaM’s, JonathanL, WayneK, and a whole bunch of other Sweeds, other Finns and India fellows along with 7 mainline very diesel engine capable, engine manufacturers are so full of it (fecal matter) saying these things then it should be no problem for the Trillions/Singapore people to supply you with the direct independent contact info of 3-4 actual in the real world user installed systems in current use with accululated 500-5000 loaded hours fueling diesels so THESE independent satisfied system users can directly sing thier praises.
I’d really like to hear about these actual in the real world satisfied pilot fuel diesel engine woodgas users. Please ask them for thier engine types: 2-stoke, 4-stroke; IDI, DI; natural aspirated, forced induction; fuel injection type - rotory pump distributed, inline pump, individual pumped, unit rocker arm type or electronic common rail.
Then we can sort out which of the many actual diesel system types out there that these real users are satisfied woodgasing with.
You know Steve a simple “No don’t do it just spark convert instead” would probably been a shorter reply… (Know that I’m kidding, sarcasm doesn’t type out well; I try to pay extra attention when you get wound up because I know its important…)
Hi DavidB
Yeah got so wound up I searched out to get a decent dial-up line, invested the three hours and watched and listened to most all of Jamestanwh’s/Trillion Gasifiers 13 YouTube videos. I’d just peek through a Quicktime no audio thumbnail before. Love to hear engines woodgas running!!
So here’s Steve Unruh eating a bit of crow to you PatrickJ and Mr Jamestanwh.
I saw and listened to an unspecified 4 cylinder Chinese diesel duel fuel load run; two different turbocharged, CAV rotory pump Lister Petter HL4 cylinder pump driving diesels dual fuel run; and then a single cylinder Yamnar TS230C 2200 RPM jack shaft hum away 1500 hertz generating on dual fuel.
This Jamesstanwh fellow to me shows a reasonable developement curve on his gasifier sysem evolution and engine running on first 4 cylinder gas(oline) engines starting four years ago. Now different diesel’s for the last two.
His gasifier systems sizing, componet locations are all in tune for a high ash palm nut and mixed wood chip fueled system. Everything reasonable as downdraft throatless with a manual active rotating grate, ect.
Not my fuels types and I certainly could not get away with his water gas washing/cooling system here in the PNW clean-'n-green. Get myself first on a local TV exposé then into pee-looter jail. Canadian, upper US midwest and most northen Euro guys would freeze up unusable with his water/evaporative dependent based systems. Not the point. Seeing the steam rising off his cooling troughs,tanks and barrels was part of what convinced me he was for real. He is Equatorial living designing for Equatorial conditions. That is much more of the World than our cold northern now anal obsessive nanny states.
Frankly I think most of our 1st world “solutions” will prove to be widespresd UN-affordable to put into general use for the majorty in the world. CT scans for ALL??
Nice to see someone actually designing/building humans usable practical for the rest of the worlds common men to be able to use.
Ha! Ha! Since this tread started with a very sophisticated high compression fully electronically controled 1st world turbo-diesel desire then I do think this Singapore fellow is overloading his deisel expereince capabilties in saying these: " . . . any conventional diesel", “No engine modifications required”, and “No derating on the engine output”
Different “any diesel” world completly on operator abused heavily ran truck, high speed vehicle and 3600 RPM screamer diesels.
Anyhow PatrickJ go ahead and get one of his systems. You could mixed chip wood fuel it with mill scraps. You need the power - have the fuel stocks. Take a one system affordable chance. You have the working deisels to try it out on.
Only once it proves to you would I commit to suppling a far off grid Farmer needing to do a lot of pump circle crop irrigating.
We say here, “Never bet the Whole Farm!”
Thanks for prodding me to get to hear that Yanmar TS woodgas run.
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve
Thanks you for your input on the trillion gasification systems.
I want the get a WK gasifier up and running to get some experience before I tell a friend to buy a trillion gasifier. I can buy American V8,s here for a reasonable price and rebuild them with high comp pistons to pump water to his crop circles (center pivots) then I will try destroy a Diesel engine with wood gas.
I can buy 3 V8,s for the price of one Diesel engine.
In one of the comments I found a link to a Scandinavian power company that supply power to the national grid , using wood gas engines. I have searched high and low to find that link again , you would not happen to have it ?
Steve you are one of the old timers on this site that makes it so great, you do ramble on some times but there is always a lot of important information in what you say that we can use.
Thank you
Patrick
Not Scandinavian but will link you to two actually woodgas electrical power projects that did get off the ground enough to actually be able to power out to a national grid. You can back into the oganization address and search other monitored countries efforts.
Switzerland, Austria, Estonia and India seem to be the most active in the last 10 years.
Common patterns? No domestic sources of politically available natural gas fields (Netherlands, Russia, ect). No available pools of oil (USA, Canada, UK, Norway, ect). NO deep sea ports to be drowned in manipulated world priced and avalible liquid petroleums, LNG and fossil coals (Japan, China, Korea, Tawain and others. Not directly crossed by cheap bulk trans-continetal pipelines (Poland, Ukraine and others). No huge investments in coal or Nuclear power plants (USA, Belgium, France, China and others). Maxed out Hydro resources now.
Three if these four listed countries have trees, can renewably grow trees and the willingness to at least try and be energy self-sufficient.
I could send you hunderds of links to shutdown now failed projects in the US, Canada and around the world. So-o-o-o very easy to kill these projects off very discreetly, indirectly. Initially fund then - dry up the funding - focus then on “techincal problems”, or, “world energy market cost changes” for the failure. Put cake-eater, tree hugging Eco-Feekin-Greens onto them: USofA - PNW, Germany. Insist that the shaft power be “most efficiently” only “modern gas terbine” genrated: East Coast US projects like the Connecticut Biomass Project misery. Untimate efficiency Geek killed? Powerworkers Unions killed? No matter dead now.
Why I only now support just gitter-done up-by-the-bootsraps woodgas projects now with my personal time and energy. No confusion then on for who it is being done for. No behind the scenes purse strings manipulating for a failure. As soon as I smell beholding grant moneys or rebate tax incentives goals I am gone, gone, gone. Woodgas can actually stand on its own energy balance sheets just fine thank you. Ain’t energy/balances wise broken at all. Needs NO Help.
Just Does NOT need to manipulated and over pot stirred into failures.
Hi Steve
I don’t think it was IEA .
On the site they showed big Diesel engines they had converted to run on gas .
Unfortunately I have been reading so many threads I’m completely confused as to where I saw it !
These failed or shut down plants are they for sale ?
Thanks
Patrick
Hey PatrickJ
You’d asked for links to power companies that had supplied national grid power using woodgasses fuel engines . . . the two Swiss operations were the only I’d ever read about. I did once read the the whole IAE “Swedish” and “Finnish” country reports and only read of deep pocketed sponsered research and chemical companies projects listed all pixilated with gas and steam turbines for shaft power in combined heat and power cycles. Interesting to read they do no better with “air” fed gasifiers then the DIY efforts. Never bothered to read the Danish and Norwegian Scandinavian country reports. Have at it man, they are in their files there.
I just did a Google 10+ pages back search of “Biomass Duel Fuel Diesel Engines”. 10 pages of pretty much dog chase it’s own tail of references and reports feeding back onto each other from the just 3-4 actual loaded enxine running expereinces from the early 80’s to 2008. Read three new to me since I last checked. Not a single claimed in service deployed IC engine system with even 500 hours out of a LAB setting with proven field service conditions experience.
Ahhh. Then page seach #11; I found this new to me info:
Now take one of thier smaller engines the “240” series inline 8 cylinder in 24 liters displacement size (1464.57 CID).
As a spark ignited engine for different “lean enrgy” gasious fuels including “Syngas”(woodgas) then set up with a 9.3/1 CR at 1500 RPM = 318-350kW shaft power depending on the actual kJ per cubic meter of the supplied fuel gas.
Same engine now set up as a dedicated compression ignited diesel fueled version (compression not listed) 1500 RPM now up to 525 kW of shaft power.
Now set up as a Duel Fuel diesel-gasious version (diesel pilot fuel ignighted)
now compression up from the spark ignited “syngas” of 9.3/1; but obviously brought down from a straight diesel CR of at least 18/1 to 20/1 to a Duel-Fuel accommodating 14/1 compression. This compression converted engine version fueled on only straight diesel fuel now downrated to 480 kW shaft power. On 30% doesel/70% gasious fuel mix then 360 kW. On 15% diesel/85 gasious fuel mix then down to 288 kW shaft power rating. Very interesting , eh?
Ha! So on the “needs no diesel engine modification” " no power downrating" claims I am taking half of my foot in the mouth crow back. Just half though, as they seem to be willing to certify thier engines to run MODIFIED and DERATED as duel fuel gasious and diesel, pilot fuel ignited, and turbo charged.
So theres a bone for you to chew on.
The electrical load shedding diesel duel fuel woodgas engine overspeed and severe exhaust system backfire reports problems needing work arounds I refered to were real from Sweden and India published reports. And one was from the direct experiences with a memeber here now on two different small diesels. Reading these I sold off the one of two small diesel engines I’d purposely bought to duel fuel woodgas with. Reinvested that money back into a spark ignighted fuel injected gasoline engine/genset to woodgas with instead based on the excellant results the FI engine woodgasing vehicle guys were getting here. All told I am out ~$2000. USD and maybe a year and a half set-back chasing this diesel duelfuel rabbit.
So you all be careful out there.
I still maintain only Some diesel engine types; under Some load conditions like pumping and stable generator loads; for Some poeple only will prove to be feasable.
Variable speeds and loaded auto/marine diesels would be the most troublesome application to try and dual diesel/woodgas fuel.
Hi Steve
In most of the threads I have read, they mentions for wood gas it would be better to have a higher compression ratio.
What is the ideal compression ratio for good gas ?
Then what is the compression ignition pressure of wood gas?
What I’m trying to say is if I did a compression test on an engine what would be the optimum compression be for wood gas before knocking?
Thanks
Patrick
Technically higher is better, right up until the knocking point. 17:1 is supposed to be the limit. Practically I don’t think you’ll see much benefit over 14:1.
Some diesels now are 22:1 or better. That’s way too high and will knock.
