Health Care Costs. Who. Where. Why

Off Topic
#44

Pay day for me tomorrow for my wage job. Between federal tax deductions, Canada pension, and unemployment insurance run by the government, those expenses amount to 27% of my gross pay. There will be additional costs from the 14cents per liter fuel tax, and sales tax on most goods except food, provincial and federal of 12%. And then the consumption taxes on alcohol and tobacco, if that’s ones choice, municipal property taxes, occasional building permits, assorted other minor expenses.

That expense pays for air traffic control, national defense (which I estimate we don’t need), apart from the case for a good coast guard and fisheries policing, which we don’t have… It also pays for roads and bridges, all infrastructure projects, paid maternity leave, the food inspection agency, unemployment benefits, agricultural services, policing, snow clearing, water treatment, public health, emergency services, street paving, icebreakers, the courts on all levels, wildlife research, communications networks, overseas aid, Canadian national parks, fireworks displays, vaccine development, etc, etc. And last but far from least, health care, so that I don’t have to pay a fee at all, or deal with second class service because the rich took all the best to their elite clinics.

If the wealthy elite paid anything close to their fair share, my portion to shoulder would be far less, but tax fraud and avoidance are rampant, off shore accounts, etc, to the degree that many millionaires pay no taxes at all.

Even so, I am proud to pay those taxes, and feel that I get excellent value for the money. Note that this is cash comparable to the monthly health care premiums cited earlier by Steve, and on an individual basis this level of contribution pays for my entire country. From my perspective the system suffered under in the US looks like a country within a country, extracting enough wealth to do all that I describe. Instead it is plowed into offshore business and mansions in Tahoe, etc for the enjoyment of an elite.

If I felt they were doing more and better, I would gladly pay more for it, just as I will gladly donate to a good cause. Government is actually extremely efficient in use of resources, be it municipally, provincially or federally. Tax dollars go a very long way, major bang for the buck. It’s not coincidence that the Ebola vaccine was developed in Winnipeg at the disease control laboratory, with my tax dollars, proud to say. Didn’t see that coming from a for profit pharmaceutical company, despite all their awesome propaganda…

For me that leaves this as not an argument about freedom and paying for others, you could have more than enough for everyone with half the present expense, and then pocket your extra cash if you so chose.

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#45

David,
I think you nailed that one except for the word “rarely” I don’t know that I believe in “Pure altruism”. Don’t think it exists, certainly not in the issue of global policing over the past 75 years. Those who tend to profit and those who tend to pay are rarely the same…

You are exactly right about importing talent vs exporting aid. I have personal experience with this concerning haiti.

Garry, I’m not sure what the average tax rate here is. I heard once a few years ago that someone calculated it at 47% once you throw in all the different taxes. Of course that doesn’t mean each individual paying that. Brackets and such.
As I read your post I remembered a line from an old TV show called West Wing. The “liberal” president was frustrated because he couldn’t get congress to pass a tax he wanted. He told his staff that the reason Americans didn’t want another tax on the rich was because every one of them believed that they were going to be the rich guy themselves one day.

That’s obviously an unrealistic idea for most. But earlier in the discussion —I looked through but couldn’t find exact quote----it was mentioned that the US is by far the wealthiest nation that’s ever existed, etc…I think there are many reasons for this fact, some of which are shameful such as exploitation of others etc, other reasons include natural resources, and many other things, but also one big reason for it is the very fact that regular people work to become “the rich”.

I know that there are many who are born rich. That’s been true everywhere for forever. But there are countless examples of American wealth being new wealth. Sam Walton was a redneck from Arkansas. Colonel Sanders just a hillbilly from Kentucky. Manoj Bhargava started in his garage mixing his product at night and delivering it personally during the day. In fact, the majority of American corporations started that way. To be sure, many have grown to be something else, but they still offer that hope to all the small guys. So, for many, being rich is not a sin. In the minds of many working Americans, being rich is the reward for working your butt off, and is therefore seen as a good thing. They hold onto this idea because they fully intend for that to be them one day. I think that whole sociological function is a major contributor to the fact that the US is as productive and financially successful as it is. People are pursuing a dream they deem as obtainable and therefore poor themselves into that pursuit. Maybe I sound too much like Ronald Reagan for your liking—LOL.

There is always a question from guys in the top tax brackets. Many of them started their own businesses, worked 80-100 hour weeks and built them up to have 20 or 30 employees and are now paying well over half their income in federal taxes. How much should a guy be responsible for? The same % as the guy who didn’t get an education, work 80-100 hour weeks, and make profitable choices? Why shouldn’t that guy just work for 6 months a year and then watch tv?

I agree that power corrupts. And I believe that wealth is power. And so, I believe there are many corporate rapists out their. I don’t want to excuse them. But when did being rich become an evil thing?

I agree that the system here is way over priced. But we may need to get some Canadians down here to help us with our government efficiency. haha…I think our folks missed that class in school.

Congrats on the Ebola vaccine, and thanks…

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#46

David, the five year countries was a reference back to someone’s post —I think Kristijan----I can’t find it now. talking about how he wondered if a soviet era 5-year plan could be more efficient…

JO , I appreciate the rminder that not all socialist countries are dictatorships. Also, I guess we can’t say this about Sweeden, but does anyone know just how many US tax dollars it took to make France prosperous enough to practice their version of socialism? I don’t think I know. I would be interested to know if anyone does…

Supper time…

#47

Funny that you use Colonel Saunders as an example. He sold all rights to the American chain for roughly 1 million, then started over again independently in Canada, i believe he ended his days in Ontario. And if he gained citizenship paid nothing for his end of life care.

I believe you hit it on the head, everyone aspires to get rich, but that’s a fantasy. Tv and propagandists reinforce the reverence to greed and excess. Which begs the question, how much is enough? A system based on greed and.conspicuous consumption says there is never enough. Millionaires feel poor and impotent beside billionaires. And the public eats popcorn and judges them all reverently and categorically. That isn’t so much a system as a disease.

Why is it that morality should only apply to people of modest means? Why aren’t we hearing of huge donations regularly by the extremely wealthy to charitable causes? I would say its because people of that status feel that morality and calculations of need vs. want are accepted with a wink and a nod as beyond their sphere. Only the peons are beholden to moral standards. Prosperity theology would have us believe that the rich are visibly blessed by God, approved as superior humans. When in fact it is a corrupt, self serving system of taxation which has permitted the rich to escape financial responsibilities. So sad, since they could handily tithe 50 - 90% of their incomes without significant inconvenience.

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#48

Amen. and Amen.

I didn’t know that about Colonel Sanders. That’s hillarious. hahaha LOL. Outstanding…hahaha That’s what you call a business man. hahaha

#49

Now here’s a huge topic in it’s own right.

The U.S. stands as the most wealthy nation of all times. Due to work ethic? Doubtful. Ask those who work fingers raw in the maquilas of San Salvador making $200 jackets for $4 a day what work ethic signifies.

Regarding the status of America. No war on their soil for 150 years. The only undamaged industrial power after the world wars. If America had lost the 29 million the soviets had, plus the majority of their industrial base it’s doubtful that America would have gained supremacy. And even so, the Soviet system reigned supreme in space, gender equality, efficiency and technology through their time. They had no choice, they punched far beyond their capitalist equivalent weight. As Cuba has. Major player. Compare their "punching weight " to that of the Dominican republic…

Bottom line. The world dominating power that attained hegemony over world petroleum resources had a good go. No further explanations required for either the resultant prosperity, or the dominance.

#50

Actually we do. All of the wealthiest people in the history of the US have been very philanthropic. People like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, in modern times, reaching back to men like Carnegie and Rockefeller during the industrial revolution, have all given massive amounts to charitable causes. Pretty good list here:

http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/hall_of_fame

Of course I’m not condoning the existence of super-wealthy people by any means, and I generally agree with your take on the effects of a money-worshipping society. But I have to play devils advocate. There are a lot of very generous wealthy people out there.

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#51

Fair to say, but those people are obviously the extreme outliers. The GDP grows exponentially, but almost all the proceeds end up in the bank accounts of the private wealthy.

If the GDP has doubled in the last 25 years, but we have nothing to show for it, where would you imagine it went?

It seems ironic to compare the old robber barons who bought credibility and acceptance with their later charitably to the new class.

The Carnegies, etc didn’t accumulate that extreme wealth for no reason, but were later guilted into sharing it. Which still leaves one questioning why they were allowed to accumulate so much in private hands in the first place.

It would be like me saying i don’t want diamonds, I just like “playing” with them… Trust me, no worries, I will at least give some of them back, some day… :smile:

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#52

“As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy.”

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#53

I would rather they choose to pay fair taxes and not build all the crazy tax codes we have where the rich can afford to hire teams of people to get out of paying taxes. I am not impressed with rich people gaming the tax system then giving a percentage of the money they should have paid in taxes to charity. That feels like either PR or trying to pay off their guilt.
I know I am jaded by having worked for big companies making crazy profit off my work and being told payroll was an experience to be controlled so we couldn’t have a raise while the president took a 5 million dollar bonus.

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#54

Amen.

As they say, follow the money trail.

There’s lots of it around, but only going upwards

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#55

I know full well this fact. I have lived and worked with the very poor in many countries in my time. I know why we can buy bananas here for $.29/lb that have to be shipped across the sea while we can, at the same store, not buy apples for less than $.99/lb. I know that reality. Been there and done that. Carried bananas in the Amazon basin for less than $5.00 a long day.But I wouldn’t pick apples in Michigan for $5.00 a short hour.

And yes, I agree that the reasons you mention are valid. No war destruction, population loss…

That said, you don’t give America’s work ethic enough credit. Chris mentioned Bill Gates and others. They don’t rule their worlds because they were just lucky. They had a passion and worked like crazy to make it happen. On the flip side, I agree there are a lot of people that work like crazy and can’t make i happen because of their context. That’s why I try to spend as much time as I can working to help change that context for those I can, but let’s not throw out everything on the other side of the coin.
So Yes,
the man with the advertising company who borrowed some money right out of college (took a risk) and built a business producing a product that people are willing to pay for who ends up making a million dollars a year. He’s not an evil guy, he just went to work—for long hours, and often for long periods of time with little to no pay. He paid his workers what they agreed to pay when they hired them instead of paying himself.
Or the 5-hr energy man who mixed his product in his garage at night and sold it during the day to get going, now has a multi-billion dollar corporation. He’s not an evil guy, he just went to work. It turns out he now takes a $200,000/year salary and uses the rest to fund research and development of technology for the world’s poorest 10%. (Google "billions in change).
Bill Gates who woke up at 2 in the morning to walk to the university to sneak in the library to learn how to program. Worked long and hard against the grain to get up and going. Just a nerdy kid who made it happen.
I’m no where near one of these rich guys, but I can’t tell you how often I have worked for weeks or months without pay to make a business go all the while writing pay checks to people who work for me. Started my first logging company when I was 15 and still in school. Had 7 employees when I was 17 along with all the overhead of equipment and contracts etc. I worked for over a year nights and weekends after school, fixing equipment, managing books, making payroll, paying taxes without getting paid. I would drive log trucks to school and unload at the wood yard during lunch break sometimes. That’s what it took to make it go. Then it worked out and I became successful with it, until I sold it off to go to the mission field. Often people who try that fail. Those who don’t fail aren’t evil because they got rich.

So yeah, work ethic is significantly responsible for the wealth of America.

Sometimes there’s a reason the money trail flows uphill. Cause there are times that it’s supposed to.

May God forgive us for some of the other significantly responsible reasons.

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#56

So, I have no desire to become rich (money wise) so does that mean I’m bad ? Maybe I need to see a doctor…

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#57

Yes, there are reasons that the money trail in rich countries controlling the greatest energy wealth the world has ever known tends to flow up hill. Because in actual fact it’s an easy downhill ride seen in the right context. How many Bill Gates are living in the third world, working many times harder, and selling gum, or second hand magazines on street corners in lower status cities?

If great Bill hadn’t arisen in his time and place, another certainly would have. If I cast too many seeds into a square yard of field, though genetically identical some will prevail. They arent superior, just lucky.

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#58

The idea was not specifically about individual seeds making it, but rather the difference between the fields that make them sprout and bring forth fruit. Hence the discussion about socialistic societies vs capitalistic etc…
Yes, there are a great many “great Bills” in places where they can’t sprout and thrive…that’s the point… But there’s no reason to despise Bill because he happens to have sprouted in a field where he could thrive. I guess you can call that luck if you want to.

I don’t think I claimed they had superiority, I just said that their work ethic had a great deal to do with their success.
Your argument seems to be the following:

premise: There are many people in the third world who work just as hard as Bill Gates that do not succeed like he did. conclusion: Therefore Bill Gate’s work ethic is not responsible for his success.

That’s not logical. It can very well be true that Bill Gate’s success is attributable to his hard work. And at the same time be said that there are people that work hard that aren’t as successful even though they have a good work ethic.

There’s no need to make one hard worker a bad guy because he’s successful. Just as there’s no justice in despising someone who lives in a context which doesn’t allow him to thrive. I think either is a fallacious judgement. Whether a man is good or bad is not determined by how successful in business they are. It is (in part) what he does with what he has that tells the tale. Looking down on people BECAUSE they have wealth is no better than doing so because they don’t.
In my faith it is said, To whom much is given, much is required.

Another thought. I have never met a person who thought the “rich” should be taxed harder so they could share their wealth with the poor that considered themselves to be the rich. Where’s the line for mandatory redistribution? As North Americans we are both exceedingly richer than the guy you mentioned in San Salvador.
Are you and I now the bad guys because we have more than the guy in India or Bangladesh? How much of what I make should I be able to spend on my family and neighbors and still keep a clean conscience while there are yet people in the world starving? Should I even indulge in the luxury of having this discussion instead of working more to send more money to the Phillipines? I know that sorta sounds silly, but where IS that line? Like I said before, it’s a matter of degree on a wide scale. Big questions. I hope we can all find the right answers.

The following is a quote from an article in the chicago tribune Jan 2016:

“To be among the wealthiest half of the world last year, an adult needed to own only $3,210 in net assets (minus debts), according to the data. To be in the top 10 percent, a person needed to have only $68,800 in wealth.To be in the top percentile, the threshold climbed to $760,000, according to Credit Suisse.
Consider that, according to the Federal Reserve, the median American family had $81,000 in net worth in 2013, and the average family had $535,000 in net worth.”

I don’t know everyone’s financial status, but I suspect that the majority of the people who read this post will be amongst the richest 10% of the world’s population. I suspect that most have lands and equipment and money that approaches this amount. If you own a home and a truck and a decent set of tools you pretty much find yourself there.

So the question is,
Which government should we approach to redistribute it all for us? :relaxed:

Thanks for the great conversation…
Bed time…Until later, sleep well, unless you’re in Thailand. If so, have a nice brunch. :grin::watermelon:

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#59

Chris, that cartoon nails it…LOL

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#60

I’ll vote for that…

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#61

Hey fellows.
On just my “addiction” net limit of one hour a day I do hope you do not expect me to respond, each, and every time.
Ha! Ha! Go ahead and vent.
That is what this topic line is about.
Keep the real-meat info topics here on the DOW social-polite, meaningful, moving forward.

Ha! I am an American born in 1952.
In my families I fall towards the lighter skinned side. So I am “white”.
Then I am a male.
65 years of being held responsible for each and every, harm, slight, social/moral misstep the whole world over.
With nearly nearly none of it true.
And the good I’ve done overlooked, minimized, as so-whats.

I am actually not a flag waver. Never have been. Flag wavers shunned in my families. I will say my public pledges of allegiance as being respectful. Appreciative to being able to live as free as possible.

Now, my very favorite caps all do have small American flags on them. And I am always loyal to the hat I wear. Was an occupational requirement. Leave work. Take off the hat. Only become then free to be fully me.
The country and western song about “My Hat” is why the flagged hats.
Knock off my hat . . . I kick your ass until your nose bleeds. Why? Because it is MY hat. Show some decency, courtesy and respect, eh?

And that boyo’s is very, very much a core American attitude…
You former CommonWealth country guys are standing on decades and decades of Brit beholding/doing sands. Oil. Minerals. Gems. Fibers.
World-wealth swirled up/concentrated into a few IF of the proper Class. Supported too often by King/Queen called up Commonwealth’ers as cannon fodder. Your own country’s elites did a lot of selling out of their citizens filling graveyards with your corpses to keep Commonwealth favorable trade moneys rolling back and forth.

Just saying. Learn your histories. I DO.
J-I-C Steve Unruh

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#62

Luck does not exist. Just like voodoo only you can give it power.
An anti-luck quote form one who is considered a “failed” American President:
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination along are omnipotent.” - Calvin Coolidge

Bill Gates, Henry Ford rose because they were the most annoyingly persistent men of their day and their peers.
Edison said accurately it was, " . . 99% sweat (persistence) . . " versus inspiration, or luck.
Now all three of these guys have become social assholes. Why?
Once successful, so full of themselves thought they they knew better for others.

And Calvin Coolidge failed because he lack the empathy, and gut-grinding will to buck the system to change and evolve a system for the benefit of more than just his social class.

Here is the truth to Mr Luck
Bad things happen. Good things happen.
Bad things happen much more often to the unprepared, the unaware, those who choose to remain clueless. Then that Bad is disastrous. Good things happening to these muggles and it is declared good-luck.

Bad things happen to the aware, prepared, and chosen to be clued in folk too. At a much, much lower rate! And when that tire goes flat, it is just a minor inconvenience. Car wreck? Cell phone home, police, insurance, tow truck. One or two . . .or all. You prepared yourself for this choice.
Good things happen to these and they were going that way anyhow, so just get there faster. Give time freed up available, then go out and do more good-works.

imho’s
J-I-C Steve Unruh

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#63

I like the Coolidge quote, it still circulates. Very valid what he says. But with small biases in perspective, it begins to feed into a natural order mythos, a social order blessed by God or Darwinian principles.

The trouble is that all human behaviour occurs within a social construct, we set down rules conscioisly or unconsciously about what will be allowed. Henry Ford and Edison are examples all right. Both rule benders pushing the envelope of morality and propriety. In the case of Ford, to the degree of hiring armed thugs to beat his own workers heads in. Apparently he didn’t see working men as the basis of his incredible wealth, they were his property in a way. Peons.

Edison famously claimed patent rights on the work of his technicians and grew shamelessly wealthy and powerful. Also famous for rabidly campaigning against A.C. power, setting up public displays where he electrocuted live animals, and then followed up with the invention of the electric chair, to roast prisoners alive. For no other reason than to increase his personal wealth, competing with Westinghouse for supremacy in electrical distribution.

There is a thread through to current times of deep lapses of common morality amongst these upstanding entrepreneurial types. It seems to me that in our social construct what we actually select for and highlight with fabulous rewards sadly is too often immoral conduct.

The system, being made of money, tends to gloss over these glaring failings that any common (or real) man would be reviled for in his community.

As for who succeeds where and when, generally the big winners are in stable countries riding a wave of growing imperialism abroad, not much mystique in that.

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