Great. I hope to have my woodgas rat rod done in the spring.
Im serious about a good dog or two. Where is your new place?
And hats off to your wife for joining you! Most people arent brave enough.
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I’m planning on getting a pure sine wave inverter. Is it better to get a 24v or stick with a 12v? I know less current is nice but maybe the 24v are not made as much and have more design bugs in them. Looking at AIMS and low wattage, from about 400 to 2kw. This will be for my homemade charcoal inverter generator. Thanks…!
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John,
We live about a half hour north of Two Harbors. The Superior Natl Forest borders the north property line. I made a few compromises with her. The fridge, freezer and a camper propane cook stove were the big ones. We can adapt alternatives as time progresses.
She did buy a puppy to replace the German Shepherd that passed this past summer.
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Jeff,
There are better people on this site to answer those questions. If you are talking about an inverter for a battery bank, I understand the higher voltage the better because one can have more batteries. I went with a 24 volt system with 6 volt 200 amp hour batteries. I can have up to 12 batteries, I currently have 8.
What I understand, a pure sine wave inverter is conducive to anything you plug into it. The clean electricity is better to computer type appliances.
I hope this helps and hopefully @ray_menke or someone else will chime in.
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Jeff for inverter voltage in my opinion depends on the size of battery bank and solar array more then wiring. As an example a 60 amp mppt charge controller at 12 volts means 720 watts of solar tops or a second charger versus 1440 for a 24 volt system. Then a 12 volt battery bank will have twice the strings for the same capacity as 24 volt. Strings are never perfectly balanced so the more you have the more equalization you have to do, battery shuffling ect… small system… doesn’t really matter.
Best regards David Baillie
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Thanks Dave. I think I’ll give a 12v a try. Might be more versital and simpler for a small setup.
As most people know, ice storms are very bad for power lines. The royal astronomical society is predicting that we are going into a minimum (ice age). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150709092955.htm
The winters wil get colder. The growing season will shorten.
We are in the Pleistocene ice age. It has had several brief warm interruptions but, the ice always returns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCy_UOjEir0
Red Rock energy is a great reference for anything solar; Red Rock Energy Heliostats
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I use a 1,000 watt , 12v true sine wave inverter. True sine wave gives better power generally, LED lights seem to work better, electric motors will last longer, definitely electronic gear is better off on true sine wave.
Regarding generator / inverter size, smaller is cheaper, and will do most things anyways. True sine wave inverter price seems to go up exponentially with capacity. Off grid it’s appropriate to see how frugally one can get along, biggest bang for the buck strategy.
Regards,
Garry Tait, MB
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I agree with you on this GarryT.
The manufactuers seem on the 2000 watt suitcse IC engine inverter/gnerators to put in a lot of engineering into reliablty, noise and fuel consumtion. The units smaller than this “seem” to be enginered/manufactured Down to meet a competition price point. The larger 4000-6000 watt inverter/generators then no longer single person packable. Even have wheels. Priced UP then to greater willing to pay expectations.
Household grid services are coded demanded in the US/Canada as minimum 100 amp grid services. Homeowners/occupants then decades use 23,000-24,000 watts flip switches expectations spoiled.
My wife this morning: electric cloths washing AND drying. The electric kitchen range burner top and oven going. Then electric hot water bathing the 10 month old god-child been her for three days now (one washing machine load a day just there). THEN wife will electric hot shower herself while the child is electric heated milk been put to sleep. And funish up her electric energy shower with 30-45 minutes of electric hair dryer consuming. I measure up to 17kWh live-use in these times!!
Put a 2000 watts throttle on the consummations “normal” expectations requires a world changing dramatic.
I find that our Grids-Downs supplies these.
Then I am not the cheap-skate, brainiac, Doc Smith experimenter, overbearing, asshole, husband.
2000 watts to the family in needs-must’s, makes you the Hero.
Fuel feeding the ~4 horsepower per hour needed to make that 2000 watts electrical in one of these 50% better fuel efficient systems is reasonable and practical done.
Arrr! Arrr! “I am THE Man. I AM the took-maker. I Will give my honey-sweety-childn’ ALL thier hearts desire or die trying!!” That’s the fellows who have designed/built for a FULL 24/7/365 of 20-40 HORSEPOWER continuous equivalent systems to match that always on demand, normally available 24,000 watts grids gave them. Ok at 10 cnets a KW/h. NOT OK at DIY fuels costs.
Possible to do for a short time. Until you rip through too much fuels. Until you demands wear yourself out. And this then forces you to take your defense guns out and scrounge/prowl for more fuels. Raider-Marauder-Looter you be. Us reasonable’s will shoot down these. Or at gun point you will endenture wood-slaves to make the system fuels for, you and yours. Your I AN The MAN expectations just recreated feudalism. On my way out charlie I’m asserting my spec of Norse blood and taking any local gone rouge-hog-wild with me to keep me warm in the here-after. Don’t want to be too lonely or too cold. The Old do have an obligation to the young and the future they leave behind.
For later alternative gaseous fuels adapts later then just use two 2000 watt systems paralleled together.
Youtube of a fellow chaining together eight Honda 2000’s proving full use including full AC for a high class motor home.
Ignore the a.s’s in the commentssection on that one. Dumbshits commentors never made, payed for long term DIY fueled power in their lives. Keyboad jockies mouthing off for a moment of Net fame-blab-blabing.
The fellow with eight is a redundancies rich, and human loving, wise man. He can gift-out, stronger-arm give-up, have 7 out of the 8 wearout fail and STILL be able to give his family minimal needed 2000 watts of modern living.
Combustion lighting is for mood ambiance, wife of mine.
After a few hours of whole house sooting, stinking you’ve just put yourself and yours back into the short life dark ages.
2000 watts IS the moderate “middle-way” These others: the unsupportable extremes.
We are All On Our Way To Better
Steve Unruh
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Here is my “on my way to better” system. Funny enough it is a much better system then I had when we ran 100% off grid for 6.5 years. Fed by 8 l16 batteries. Right now it’s is powering the lights, circulator motor for back up heat and the uv filter. During the summer the fridge as well. The theory is I have 16-24 hours of preparedness that does not need me here. Heather calls and let’s me know the grid is down and I can finish my for money day and come home. After 16-24 we go all solar, 10 gallons of back up Dino or charcoal… in winter time the Woodstock can make about 10 gallons of charcoal if I’m close by. Someday that end moves outdoors. Food, filters, parts of course. As a pack rat there is never enough of any of it but it’s a work in progress. Steve I agree with your 2000 watt scenario but don’t you dc charge/invert as well?
Best regards, David Baillie
Best regards, David Baillie
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Great comments Steve.
I just heard a program on the radio, they were talking about a business philosophy in India, progress / innovation through frugality. I think that’s kinda the core of this discussion. It doesn’t take any genius to blow through a pile of resources. The guy who lights the woodpile on fire might be the god who brought back summer for one night, but after that it’s going to get a lot harder… 
Doing with less, or having to think smarter to get the job done seems to be a lost art in north America, but that’s where the real gold lies. If you can live well on much less than others, or less work, or money, that’s real advantage, in terms of freedom or especially if the herd is due to be thinned for financial, resource, or conventional thinking reasons.
I know of a couple who have built an offgrid mansion, solar powered. Now the wife is insisting on a system that will let her run an electric stove. That’s grid locked thinking to the extreme. There’s nothing green or smart in what they’re doing in my opinion, but they apparently have money to burn. The planet couldn’t carry the burden of too many people thinking like that.
I agree with your logic regarding generators, I was speaking of a solar powered battery bank, very small scale, but still runs the tv and lights. I am concerned in the longer run about the longevity of the average gas IC generator. Theoretically a diesel should last much longer. Better yet might be the Listeroid diesels, or one converted to syngas, as the All Power Labs team did. Wikipedia has an article on “gas” (town gas) engines, which apparently were much used in Europe, built like tanks, made to run all year, for years. With liquid cooling, the waste heat could be used for hot water, or home heating. I would hook one up to a large 3psi syngas supply as I described on another thread, then gas could be made in batch, stored in bulk, should make for greater reliability.
For lighting, a person can go straight 12 volt, there are instructables on rewiring LED bulbs, or Princess Auto has a nice surplus 12v fluorescent, draws 8 watts, produces about 40 watt equivalent. A trickle charge panel, an old car battery and a switch would make a pretty sweet shed light, or backup lighting. A 1,000 watt true sine wave inverter only draws 5-6 watts idling anyways, so a person can decide how to allocate a limited power budget. I suspect coleman lanterns can be run on wood gas, just like in the old days, CO alarm mandatory…
I hear you regarding unconscious use of power and water. If a person wants to appreciate the convenience of water, have them haul it from a well or creek, soon they will make the connection. I saw a youtube video of an olympic cyclist trying to pedal power a toaster. He couldn’t complete the job. We’ve lived better than people ever have in the history of man, based on throw away priced energy. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect to go on like that. We can probably form better lives, more human lives, on just a fraction of the usual budget of resources, by making critical reasoned choices about where the true value lies.
Regards,
Garry Tait, MB
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Steve,
I too am curious, do you have a battery bank? If so, how big what kind of batteries, etc.
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Well guys here is a list of my current capabilities. Then I’ll try and shortly relist what I did try to get to here.
Currently I did invest into a brand spanking new electronic fuel injection gasoline 11.5 kW Miller/Kohler engined welder/generator. With on-board fuel, 2-3 five gallons of always on hand cans of enthanol-free gasoline, the gasoline in the woodsplitter, the riding lawn mower, two Honda walk behind mowers, two of the three kept drive-able, licencened, insured vehicles I/we could twice for four hours a day generate for ~60 days.
I gave up and resolved to go this way after srtuggling for years to DYI self-generate to be able to all-purposes weld.
Yes, David like you sorta’ I will not even start and power this up untill the 3rd day, 72 hours grid-down without.
Battry LED/Floresent lamps, propane Colman stove ( with 20 pound tank adapter hose) doing duty until then.
Back in 1995/6 I lost out on an all family vote to NOT put in a Propane furnace, hot water heater, kitchen range and even a propane clothes dryer.
If I’d won and we could of had a 500 gallon propane tank fill storage/price scale capability I would have gone with a propane Miller/Kohler welder instead. Then had 60 days turn key electrical back-up AND 60 days seam-less most all other! With propane then I would be satisfied with combustion lighting.
Long term then some of these appliances could have been woodgas fueled substituted. Heck. I probebly would have snuck in a propane primary refrigerator on the wifie.
25 years of propane ups and downs pricing all of this would have 2X, 3X been costlier than our really cheap Bonneville Power big-hydro grid electricity. Why I lost the vote.
Getting to this point I did buy and model to mount and build around an oversized made in India 12hp (on diesel) double flywheel Listeroid. Wife hated it. It was scary to her. Hopped like an SOB unless achored to a 2200 pound base. Needed some kind of electric starting adapted over system. I could hand crank and start it even on below zero cold - but only ME, when I was feeling 100% up to snuff. Sick - no bloddy way. Then when the US/EPA slammed the door on any further importation; me just like APL - WHY model on somethig to show others that they could never, ever duplicate, eh? Sold off that engine to a “fellow”. Mums the word. I lost a cool $1000. all up, getting it, and paying truck shipping to get it here. Stupid, stupid Steve. Nasty tasting cool-aid.
Trying to evolve that into a system with enough power to weld with I also bought and still have an excellent Mecc-Alta brushless 4 pole, 350 pound, 1st world quality gen head. 230 volts single phase. Have the custom made 12 inch diameter double 7 groove serpentine pulley to belt up to the slow speed Listeroid.
Ha! Anybody want a 40-50 pound pulley cheap?
From that same time era I also have still two 550 watt h.d. commercial Rediline 12v input motor generators. And two 1600 watt versions. Commercial use durable. These were to be individual circuit branched.
Also have a 2.5 kW old-Trace made 1999 big heavy transformer true? modified? sign wave inverter. 12Vdc input.
WAS going to buy a forklift 12v 1700 pound battery to tie all of this together. I prefer fewer, bigger cells. I have the BIG set of cable crimpers. Very experneced making up big truck cable sets.
What can I say? I got old. Relized I was fully capable of setting up a systems that only I would understand. None here would even do battery maintneces on it. So left unused after a year or two once I am gone, be unusable.
I still have a cute little 7.5 hp Changfa single cylinder diesel with electric starting that my wife finds OK, aceptble. And willing to use. Wear out any parts - and be hand making replacements.
WE still have the 1980 JD/Yanmar 23hp (on diesel) tractor. The 10 kW Mecc-Alta be easy enough to PTO drive off of that. The JD using Sweed Johan Liddel’s David Brown woodgas convert as an example be doable to woodgas convert. Grid-down. Again no repair parts could be had.
WHY the need for grid-down, all purpose welding to finish up some of these, and other alternative possibilities. Gas welding ok until you are out of the gasses.
Reminder: I do have a BenBuilt Victory gasifier system with hundresds of hours use-proof on it.
Not a reminder. A for your information. For the last 2 years I’ve become medication dependent. Never more than 90 days away from medication without. LONG grid-down, normal suppy systems down and I will become non-cognitive function-able by 120 days in.
4-5 of us old farts around here in the same situation. Ex- millwright electricians. Ex-HD deisel engine mechanics. One a retired mechanical engineer with a very bad heart. One an ex-army sniper can make near anything if made in plastic.
Long term grid-down shtf and we are all on meds dependent countdown clocks to get done what we can, while we can, before becoming NFG’s out of the game of life.
So reflect: us old Vietnam era farts, seen it, done it. Willing to do it one last time for the good of others we will be left behind without our experiences to guide them.
What would I do differently?
Buy one at a time 2000 watt suitcase inverter/generators. Keep developing, gumming these up, even burning them out until I COULD woodgas/char gas fuel them.
Have wifie and others turn key usability once two on hand.
Once 4-5 on hand I’d have the capabilities I have now and have spent out a lot less.
Been more understandable and be replicating dulplicatble by others.
Real Life awards no points for being brainic, barley in control edge treading without crashing, dieing, burning.
Yep. I admit that’s been me.
Fellows after a few decades the survivors guilt will haunt, wake you too.
I try telling this to the bunker up, shoot-all but my own guys in the “survivor” 80’s. I tell this to current day “preppers” If you are a decent human the dreams later will haunt you. Not human enough to be conscious about what you’ve done, or failed to do, your inhumanity will frighten so, you will be shot down as a mad dog.
Steve Unruh
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Yup you sure don’t dissapoint Steve. As the saying goes someone who can build a fire without matches will never be the one to forget his matches…
Everyone messes up this stuff if they are being honest. My biggest regret was the tank less water heater. Between the draw of the computer board, tendency to freeze up if the ELECTRIC! Freeze protection heater was unplugged, tendency to vent waste heat if the draw was too low. Fine for most but for off grid back up heater it was a disaster. Now replaced with a solid no electronic parts direct vented tanked unit. The usage difference between the two is so tiny as to be unmeasurable. Managed to blow up a 7.5 kw Briggs and stratt propane genny. Never meant for off grid just 4 hour power outages somewhere warmer. It hated the cold and hated propane tanks less then 20% full.
Best regards, and good night David Baillie
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Ok let me add.
We have an older Colman tent triailer we’ve used and two big enought outside, drive-in buildings bigeough to open this up out of the weather. (Our Bad-things Happened Plan C )
Has a propane furnace, cooking top/oven. 12 volt lighing. One end bed for us. The other for the three big dogs.
This last summer offered to a couple “in-recovery” one of the three driveways spaces to recover and bring back to life an older high quality 5th wheel trailer. Fun recovering back to use the propane furnace, 12v/115v/propane refrigerator, propane range/oven, propane hot water heater. Getting the 12vdc/115vac charger, battery and lights working.
Reminded me though of all of the times in the years from 1970’s to now working on self-contained RV’s hybrid electrical’s. Some have inches and inches thick of different systems manuals to wade through. Makes PC documentation look easy.
Few even willing to learn to even do a simpler mixed vehicle/house batteries system inspections and maintenance’s. Let alone crack a manual for a been sitting unused, now not work trouble shooting.
Why I’ve told all of the make-a-woodgas-system-as-easy-to-use-as-any-modern-appliance Developers that THEY need to go out and RV diagnose, user train, to realize the futility of making systems too dumbed down easy. The Chinese-obligation you saddle yourself with then then will legacy drag you down to stopping.
One 2000 watt inverter/gen does not work, set it aside, and use another. Fix another day. Need more than 2000? Start up another.
Woodgas systems fabbing instead of one excellent BEST angle grinder BenP used 3-4 less expensive all plugged in side by side at the same time. Never changed over from big cutting disc to grinding wheel to brush wheel/cup. Just grab an already set up power head to do what exactly what he wanted done. Only stopped working to head changed dinked when a consumable worn unusable.
Auto pistol guys, never let revolver guy me, play their contrived target games more than once. I’ll carry three and never reload, Just New York drop and switch/quicker. Real world, real proven.
Needful things need to be covered in non-same groups of three. The 1st is the bests hopes primary. #2 is for when #1 does not work, gets lost, stolen. #3 is for a back up to #2 once put into primary use.
Having one of anything really needful is just one step a way from having NONE capability at all.
Two of the running vehicles here now with mounted up studded winter tires installed. Freezing rain, black ice today and for the next few days.
Grumping severely at the wifie been too damn cheap to get studded tires for her newest Ford. Four days from now there will be no new local studded tires to be had! One studded-up gets plowed into wrecked usable by others, and we will be down to one studded vehicle, disparate uses sharing. She will hate that.
S.U.
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Hey DavidB we crossed last night when I was couch sitting using up my monthly “free” monthly T-mobile 3G data time.
Fascinating to hear all of you fellows lay out your systems, experiences and expenses squeezed out and sometimes lost to learn what will DO, or Not DO in times of real need.
Shows very well that once the grid is down for whatever reason; grid-dependents would be about ONE year behind the curve of anything DIY usable. TOO LATE then pizza-eaters/cake-eaters.
All the books, all the internet downloads “just-in-case” you squirreled away will be impossible to make.
FEMA made, impossible to use past a few hours gummed up engine.
The only thing for suburbans like my named family of Joshua, Kelly, Anna, Wendy, Ashley, would be a new bought, set-aside suitcase inverer/gnerator. Ran once to proof it, and at least minimal train them. Then either fuel dumped out or long term fuel treated (ONE year only). Couple of fuels cans too. Monthly into vehicle recycled to keep fresh. (Jan/Feb 2016 BackwoodsHome magazine)
I’ve even given DIY books like BENP’s to the rural family of Marty, Wesley and Joshua. All welders. Millmen. IF enough torch gasses on hand. IF they did have a bigger gen’set and the fuel they COULD fab from farm scrap metals and weld up something.
“Buy you books. Send you to school. And all you want to do is play around with the teacher.” Me. Being Trump-baiting from one branch. Being Sanders/Hillary bated from another branch side.
In Ted Koppel’s new book, “Lights out” he says he has seen first hand from his investigating reporting career that there are forces in the world now today who really, really hate America and working loudly, openly to bring her to her knees.
National forces: Iran, North Korea working hard to be able to high altitude rocket/nuke EMP cripple us. China, Russia, India, Pakistan (along with France, UK) have had this capability for years but unlikely to do as too many investment inter-ties to the US/Canadian economies. NOT true for Iran and North Korea.
The second set of America “The Satan” haters in the Jihadists extremist. Bombing the World Trade center 1993. Cole ship bombing later. Bombing the embassies in Africa. Then the coordinated airline take over crash/bombings.
In the Paris France attacts there were multiple locations simultaneously attacked. Just like 9/11 here.
Ted Koppel’s investigation found that any one of the three North American power grid-nets could be daisy-chained brought down by physically taking out as few as six of the rural large vertually unprotected, unhardened, large transformers farms. Already proof done once in 2003 south of the silicon valley. Jim-Bob, and Billy-Bob “on an obviously weekend shoot’em up drunken spree” AK shot up the main feed-in transformer station south of the silicon valley.
Never tracked down and caught. Hmm. Yeah. First these “drunkards” cracked into just the right hardened fiber net vault to kill the video feed. Had the foresight to finger print wipe down their AK 30 steel shell casings before magazines loading up.
Then in his investigation he found that the near universal hardware/software to control grid functions WAS hackect by us to injure Iran’s nuke program. Iran then retaliated back hacking into 30,000 Saudi oil companies computers to crash/ lock up to only show then a burning American flag.
Seems the Siemen’s grid controllers have an easy access password backdoor. The factory programmed password got HAD; and sneaker-net passed around.
Out here on the Left Coast not too hard to fine very programmer adept radical Eco-Greens groups wanting to save the earth from the scourge of Man. It is we people who are the viral-insult to be knocked back into check.
Many more investigative discoveries in Ted Koppel found. Read the book.
Watch the Nat Geo video “American Blackout”.
He then used his reporters contacts to set up interviews with any and all local, state, Federal agencies to see just what was in place to supply food, water, medicines and support relief for an extended Grid-Down event due to any reason.
We good for local weather/storm/volcano/earthquake/flooding events. E.G. Better post Sandy responce built on the too late, too slow Katrina experiences.
Wider than a local/regional event there IS NOT the plan or resources in place. Past a few million folks supported out to 10 days the response resources will be exhausted.
That early 2000’s summer overload lines sag melt down eastern grid failure effected 55 million people. An “unforeseen accident incidence” they said. Intentional actions could be made to be wider, longer time duration.
Ted Koppel’s book cover has a nice illustrative NOAA satellite night enhanced photo showing the outlines and extents of the three US/Canadian power grids. On record, officials say: just call us, we will take care of it.
The in-the-know government/power industry people, willing to talk off record later to TedK. said we all have to be prepared for intentionally caused grid “interruptions”. Those willing to admit it personally prepare for 30-90 days outages
Ted Kopel is not a conspiracy spinner. No Planet X. Not poles flipping. No Prophecies. He interview jokes he still is not ready for a foil cone hat just quite yet.
He seriously says for him and his family he did take to heart the advice to generator buy and set up enough fuel self-sufficiency for 30-90 days.
So fellows WHY I’m pushing the easy start transportable fuel sipper inverter/gnerators now. MY WHOLE extended family cannot not all come to live with us. They will have to hunker down in place and ride out the 30-90 day events. And they will listen at least that much to bro’ Generatorman Steve. Yeah. Yeah. Most only if I supply the generators. Can’t take it with me. We all arrive naked and squalling. Your control is to go out at least with the dignity to be clothed and acceptance quiet.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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im with you steve I here all the time wtshtf ill be coming over. lets see how long they stay when they half to work for it.
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The universe is telling me something Steve, you are the 3rd person to tell me to read koppel’s book… Ontario is pretty much screwed at this point. Both sides of the government fence chose to put off modest rate increases for decades when it coyld have made a difference and neglected the infrastructure in favor of political peace. Now it all comes due with everyone pointing fingers and rates going through the roof… Good to know it’s not just us here! We chose a grid connection versus a new battery bank, bigger array and better generator. As long as I look at it as not as expensive as generator power I don’t get too worked up…
Best regards, David Baillie
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Good comments Steve. You omitted one inevitable scenario, a massive solar flare. We have no idea what the frequency of a big one is, but there was one in 1859 that would have easily fried most of the transformers worldwide. The consequences of that would dwarf many of Koppel’s scenarios. Maybe there won’t be another that severe for centuries if we’re lucky, but we don’t know. Like the worst of Koppel’s scenarios, recovery would be tough. Transformer shops would take a year to replace damaged equipment. Theoretically. If the tradespeople kept coming to work, and essential materials kept flowing, and everyone else was supported, coordinated and cooperative.
Hopefully we never see such a day, but I like the idea of having independent means for some modest comfort.
If anything, I think the timelines you lay out are optimistically short, but miles ahead of the herd.
Regards,
Garry Tait, MB
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Hey Steve, today was a good example of how bad things would get here in a grid down scenario. Many people around here in the heart of wood country have been talked out of their wood stoves for insurance purposes or convenience sake. Add to that with the lowering of propane and oil costs recently they have put off their efficiencies upgrades. Sorry for the cool inside temp. We were lazy yesterday evening and did not stoke up enough in preparation
Best regards, David Baillie
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