thanks again Pepe, Gonna have to tear myself away for a few day to do the Christmas thing.Have to run inland to my other property where my daughter lives. I have more junk over there to check out for more parts. Have a great holiday all, David
Ok back at it now, thanks steve for the char lightup process. It actually stayed lit for about 15 minutes on just a fire tube full of chunks. The flame was orange but I still felt like DR. Frankenstine and had to shout out" its alive" just for principles. One question for you steve is alder a good source for fuel? You being from wash know that most people consider alder a weed and some don’t care for it at all for firewood. I have had wood heat all my life and good wood is free wood and if its close to home its even better. I can burn anything that will fit in the door of my stove. I have never had a chimney fire or even had to clean it. Another question is has any body tried Madrona? I know it is the ultimate firewood and produces coals that burn forever. also thanks again to Pepe for steering me towardsthe utube links. Very informative even for a hick like me. The part that I liked best was when he reffered to gasification as " A 3D thermal chemical mechanical gravimetric puzzle with no discrete puzzle pieces" all variables all the time. Now lets see if this darn computer will let me put up some pics!!
Yes, that was a funny statement. I like his subtle humor. You’ll find these videos are time well spent.
Yes the man definitely knows his stuff and does a good job of reducing it down to laymans terms for us people with only a high school edumacation. As Red Green says at the possum lodge “we are all in this together”
Steve,
I know you meant to address it to David L but something caught my eye.
“Ha! Ha! Send me 400-500 pounds of Madrona and let me use it and I’ll tell you it’s charaiteriscos and how you’d have to set up to gasifier operate with it.”
When you adjust for a specific type of wood, What are you using to adjust? Are you using a baseline of certain temps and vacuum? Are you actually measuring the gas? Changing the restriction plate size to the density of the wood? Maybe the size of wood chunks? Or D) all of the above
BillS
Well BillS first I’d burn up 300 pound of an unknown wood in my very well know to me woodstove.
This would tell me it’s basic Volitals to Char to Ash ratios.
I’'d then know how fast or slow in energy release it wants to be.
I’d then know how hard or soft the char chunks are. Know the size fracturing it wants to pillow fracture char devolve into.
This all would tell me how to chunk size it in a given size of gasifer hearth.
I’d then know how active for the ash management I’d have to be at the grate.
Char hardness/pillow fracturing balanced against this I may even change out the grate grid.
Tricky on this as the same species of tight grained limb wood reacts much differently than wide grained trunk wood. 50 year plus growth outer tight ringed wood differently than wider grained heart wood. 3-5 year old “sap wood” limb chunks different yet.
I would never change out the restiction diameter or dink with the air nozzles.
You can get just as much flexiblty change with fuel wood sizing. Even more change flexibility possible with species and tree fraction selecting as with basic hearth changing.
Dink with the the restiction and air nozzle in flow rates will affect gas quanities and worse; gas Quality for your engine.
Good experienced woodstovers know with the same wood to get a faster fire with a higher energy release to fine split the wood down. Slower fire with a streached out energy release with the same wood then just use larger wood sizes.
GOOD ammunition handloaders know that the primary difference between a fast powder and a slower powder is in the actual flake, ball, tube/rod form to control the enrgy release rate and NOT in any underlaying chemical composition. 178 current cartridge loading powder numbers available in only two different chemical compositions: single based and double based.
Good actual working blacksmiths know well the differences between the energy release rates in different wood formed chars and their sizing also.
Not exactly rocket science. Artisan tradecraft for sure.
Then I’d different size prep the last 100 pounds and hearth gasify in at least 5 different loaded motor verifed runs.
Make changes between each set of runs.
Run the changes past optimum results into poor results to establish operating windows for this wood type.
Need the loaded engine to proof the gas quality/quality.
As I’ve said before gasifier internal temperatures must always be held under all condition above know minimums.
Maximum temps are differnet issues. Metals failures and ash slagging/melting. Alder wood ash slags several hundred degrees F below Doug Fir wood ash. This along with a slower active release rate makes it more difficult to gasity with than easy Doug Fir.
Slagged/clumped ash does not flow or blow clear. Poker rod time.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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I knew there was a reason I like soft wood chips… 
Thanks Steve U I appreciate it. This will send me in another direction which is exactly what I need. I have had a lot of experience burning madrona for wood and it burns at a incredible high temp and the coals hang around like chunks of iron in the the stove. Awesome for Firewood it grows a lot on the Puget Sound along the saltwater. Its like gold for firewood as far as buying it. I was under the impression that hardwoods were best until I watched WK in his chunker video. There weren’t a piece of hardwood around.HMMM I said. In the same shed that I pulled the alder out of I probably have 2 or three cords of nice doug fir. Perfect I was about to cut her open and do some reconfigurations but I wanted to take it as far as I can with this Prototype. I think I have an old generator out back that could be a good victum for testing . If you think that’s what I should do then I am on it. Thanks for the info, as usual you guys are great. Usually when you learn things the hard way you remember a little better and it sinks into thick skulls like mine a little deeper. Nothing new to me. David
Here is a drawing of what I have so far with the measurements and configuration. No hopper yet, just haven’t decided on what to use. Any Input would be great. Still looking around for a victum for a motor the one I thought still ran has a clunk when you turn it over. I have some other options to look at. We will see if the drawing comes out readable. David L
I would strongly suggest preheated air jets. Everything I read, seen and heard, it’s pretty much a must. Another thing I’m going to do different is a slotted grate. It sounds like the char has a tendency to clog up on round holes more.
Just my two cents worth. But I’m also a newbie.
Bill S
David, I think the outlet pipe from the “venturi” or cyclone is too close to the bottom of the barrel and will suck up the stuff you are wanting to get rid of. Perhaps cut it off a couple of inches lower than the inlet pipe. Also, the paper in the final filter will get wet and soggy, and there will be water in the 11 foot hose between the cyclone and the filter. It will accumulate in the lowest area, which might not be a big deal if you only run for 30 minutes or so.
Thanks Bill S If you look into the plan you will see there are no air jets at all being the true downdraft model all the air comes in through the top once the ignition port is closed. After viewing a lot of data on the heated hopper and heated air jets, that just makes too much sense to heat your fuel and air and to also pinpoint the area where air is being introduced. So you are absolutely right in my book. I had this thing pretty much complete before I found this sight. The info I was working off said that you could make them out of any thing any size and the only thing that mattered was your fire tube dimensions and restrictor plate…I threw in the ventura bottle just cause I had seen that on u tube and have a whole pile of propane bottles around. I welcome your 2 cents worth any time. David L.
After spending a lot of time trying to figure out dimensions, what to insulate, where to cool and get rid of soot, it was suggested to me to to build a WK. It made complete sense. Everything has been tried and tested. Everything is laid out including videos. Like following a recipe. I may make my hearth design sometime later, just for comparison. I understand the basics and I want to burn wood and do something productive with it. I thought the WK was just for vehicles, but I guess not. Something to think about.
Bill S
Hi David,
A few thoughts on the FEMA. Keep the cyclone as close as practical to the burner shell. You don’t want the gas to cool too much and condense in the cyclone. The cyclone removes heavier particulate matter from the gas stream and it collects at the bottom. Therefore you need a char collection container instead of a drain valve. Pic 1. It works very well as you can see from the pile of talc like, very dry char.
Pic 2/3. I agree with Ray that the outlet tube should just be an inch or so below the bottom of the inlet tube. I made the same mistake. Pic 4. Also, I would keep the inlet right up at the top of the cyclone Pic 5. Note that I changed cyclone length to get closer to some of the design numbers.
Pic 6. My FEMA. This cyclone did not work, but I don’t know if the straight sides was a factor. I went with the more conventional design as close as I had parts for, lol.
I also agree there may still be some moisture in the gas before the final filter, so I have an upright filter(about the size of your cyclone) with a grate 2" off the bottom on which the medium sits (pine needles in my case).
Pic 7. Bill’s grate comment is right on, slots are better. I was using a 1/2"x1/2" heavy gravel weave screen.
You can hold off on the hopper. That large firetube will hold enough for testing purposes. Besides I think you will need to go to an imbert style gasifier for long term ICE running with the least possibility of tarring up an engine. I never did run an engine on my FEMA. By the time I got the FEMA running I had read and seen enough and gotten this same push that a fixed zone gasifier (basically an imbert) was where I should be heading.
Everything you have done is important knowledge gained. Learning is never a loss.
You might be able to build an imbert drop in hearth for the shell you are using now.
In this forum scroll down to the Small Engine users corner and look in there for My first small engine run by Richard “Pepe”. I have a lot of pics of my goods and bads there along with some vids you might find helpful.
You’ll see how I reused the same tanks through my adventure, 100 lb propane. Pic 8. Just right for lines C and D on the imbert chart. Pic 9. Cyclone dimensions.
I had to back up a lot as you can see from all the changes I went through. It seemed like reverse was my first gear, lol. Hopefully you won’t have to. Well, too much anyway. Enjoy.
Pepe
with help fromTerryL we were able to get our first gasifier a fema to run a small engine… the genset that is on our current unit. It did a great job of sticking it up. we were never able to get it to produce gas that didn’t stick up the engine. just my 2 cents.
Steve U.: Do you have some info sheet with the ash %'s of various woods or are you going from your own experience and calculations? If you have access to an info sheet, I’d love a copy. If not, thanks for all your “research” on the topic.
Hi Steve U.;
Was reading yoir last comment and noticed you mentioned me and my gasifier. For the sake of knowing what my hearth design is, I thought I would chime in with this info. I have an Imbert type hearth that is scaled closely to 55% of line “I” of the Imbert chart. I have 7 nozzles each being 1/4" dia. and a 3" very thick stainless steel restriction plate. The whole bottom vessel that surrounds the bottom of the hearth is heavily insulated. Hope this sheds some light on whats under the hood.
Happy New Year to all. Dan
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Hi David,
Your flare must have given you a proof of concept smile. I had roughly the same flare (and smile) in my early imbert style before I built an adequate cooler/condenser. The smoke you see is probably unburned smoke (complete with uncracked tars) and a moisture plume. If you have a moisture plume you will never start an ICE on it simply because you will be sucking moisture into the engine and shorting out the spark plug instantly. I know this from experience. Before you light up next time put a gallon jar or can over the outlet and watch how much moisture collects in a hurry. A simple water drop out mechanism at that point probably won’t work to cool and condense the steam to water. I’m using the burner, cyclone, cooler, filter configuration as many do. Check out this vid for some insight. I have other gasifier vids there as well.
Gasifier run with vibrator made 11- 24-13
Water collection at 6m18s
This design is just one of several “ways to go”, but I know by now that you are probably on information overload. I will be glad to answer any of your questions based on my experiences to date. You can even go to my members page (Richard “Pepe” Lemieux) and contact me by private email if you prefer. Enjoy.
Pepe
Thanks again Pepe, I am doing other projects that fell into my lap all at once this week. Your right about the information overload, all this stuff is brewing in my head while I work on other stuff!! I was at the understanding that the ventura actually was where your cooling and water was separated. Makes sense now cause when I would drain it I would get only a few teaspoons full of a weak coffee looking liquid. After a few more tests I will at least move it closer or change it all together. I will probably modify the existing one first just to see how things change. And thanks again to steve U, and all who have added any input, I think maybe us folks who have ran wood stoves for an only heat source may have a little edge on some of this science. I have worked on and off for a tree service that a friend owns and was always bringing home firewood. Even when I was working for other employers when he had a job out my way he would drop off all the firewood on a take everything basis. Sometimes I would come home to five ten cords of wood in my area that I had set aside for him to dump. I would sometimes not be able to identify the species and have to call and ask.He was a certified arborist and would always know. Like you steve my father preferred douglas fir to any thing and would not burn anything else. The pitch in the wood burns hot hot and leaves little ash. When we would take down an old growth fir I would abandon my shop job and be on sight just to make sure them old growth super tight grain branches didn’t get sent through the chipper. Those things burn so hot you had better have a way to shut her down or you might burn the place down. I am drying some of the fast grow fir now for some more tests and have located a good old 20 horse Kohler 2 cylinder for a test IC engine.But it will be next week before I can continue any mad scientist stuff. David L
Good deal on the Kohler 2 cylinder Kohler DavidL.
That means it will come with a good electric starter. Much easier to let the starter continuously crank for system suction while you dial in the air/woodgas mixes.
For early system developing keep the gasoline or propane carburator intact for engine starting and warming up. They you switch to your woodgas while it is still running. Your developement goal will than to be able to develope into the the best on woodgas power possible usning standardized gasoline or propane as your guide points. I’ve actually had to clean up and reinstall carburetor to establish this base line.
Toward that goal at some point you’ll have to delelope a less flow restictive true woodgas mixer. Still then very wise to Wye or Tee in a samll gasoline or propane carburator for these engine from cold staring ups and warmng ups.
AND this will be your no woodgas system operating generating back up then. Had to bottle feed hand valve in hot water bucjketed heated propane to do this. Kinnda dangerous if the engine was to back fire.
Do not let you get your self paainted into any purists corner when your goal is to generate needed to use electricity.
These are all lessons from the DOW Premium side that you can confirm read.
Dutch John now expanded past this to tri-fuel calabilty of propane, gasoline and woodgas. Woodgas as the primary.
Make haste slowly on your hearth and system developements. Best to always do at least 5 cold start runs before making any changes.
Tweek with your operations instead. Think you got it all figured? Prove it. Run it then past this point into failures. You are teaching you. You are learning boundaries and possiblities.
While I will still maintain there is no perfect gasifier or no perfect gasifer wood fuel there is the possiblty of becoming The PERFECT gasifier operator.
Takes lot and lots of experences over time and differect circumtances to become this. He’s the fellow can make any system work to run an engine some way, some how. Nope. Not me. . . . yet. Still working on that.
General Chuck Yeagar in his autobiography said he actually was not one of those natural born flyers. Got airsick the whole first weeks of flight training. But he was bound and determined to fly, and be the best flyer possible. His successes he said was 50 years of more flight “seat time” accumilated in anything he could wangle his way onto to get these experiences than those around him They played. He flew. They recreated. He flew. They married and raised children. He flew.
The best fisherman. The bet hunters. Musicians. They’ll all tell you you have to put in the time, suffer the bumps and bruises and that true sucsess AIN’T about the best equipment or “the system”.
Sucess is the ablity to make a French course meal in a true wood cooking stove. Then you are a true old oringinal French Chef. Wood camp fire and then only three entrys and you are a damn good Cook. Go to the freezer take out the microwave box and then you are a Consumer. Always restaurant eat then a Consumer/Critic. Take-a-way always eat then a lazy Consumer.
DanC thanks for the info. You may have put this up in one of your videos. Watched them all out to 3 minutes 30 seconds each. Good stuff you are doing man. Your shaker ystem is amazing. Best stills pictures and discription of this are on your repeonses on Mr Pepe’s project thread.
BrianWA you are actually doing things now with your blacksmithing that will help you undestand much. Blacksmiting was the true birth of woodgas. Not Msr. Imbert 100 years later.
Lots of wood species info out there.
Covers growth rates.
Covers sawabilty and machinabilty.
Covers strengths and brittleness. Even nail-abilty.
Firewood sites covering firewood rating desirability in BTU’s, and such. Ha! They always low tank rate or mid-range Douglas Fir and Pines. Favor quiet easy dense fireplace woods instead.
Nobody I’ve found yet rates woods species by ash contants. The menting point sof the different wood ashes. Or even volitals to char ratios
Easy standatized ASMT tests for all of these if you are willing to pay. See the end of WayneK book for the these tests numbers.
Doesn’t much matter what would be gasifier Best anyhow.
You will be using what you got just like in the old steam rail and padlewheeler days. They did wonders in the PNW in Washington, Oregon, BC and southern coatal Alaska on Doug Fir for “power woods”. Ha! Saved the maples and alders for fire “banking” wood.
Think about it. They did not have Doug Fir back on the Misouri or Mississippi. Bet they must have had regional favored powerwoods vesus a slow long banking woods also.
Same 'ol. Same 'ol.
Ain’t ever so much what you got.
But what you Do with what you Do Have.
High ash just means more grate working.
High volitals wood you’ll always have to baby sit closely not to run out of char before the volitals are all converted. Have more soots to handle.
High char woods either have to grate spill lose and recover excessive char once you are out of volitials. THIS Is what you are reading on the Premium vehicle operators DOW side with the slipped char. NEVER get that with Doug Fir!
Or . . take a page from the charcoal guys here on the DOW and intoduce alternative sources of “volilals” for high char woods.
Tricky, tricky to keep the heat energy balanced doing this with water. Read KoenVL’s last posts on this.
Crank 'er up and burn out that hearth bottom DavidL learning. Then move on.
Want some sticky gooey pitch wood to really get it heated up?
Regards
Steve Unruh