Updraft gasifier with catalytic cleaning

Hello everyone. I fully understand that downdraft wood gasifiers are a superior design to updraft gasifiers for numerous reasons, specifically their tar production.

However, I am very interested in using “wet” wood as a fuel.

That being said, I would like to use an updraft gasifier and clean the gas afterwards. To this end, I am thinking of sending the gas (After it travels upwards through the fuel) through a cyclone, then through a nickel foam catalyst which would be contained in a semi-annular tube around the oxidation and or combustion zones. From there I would do some additional polishing of the gas.

Is this a sound idea? I get that updraft gas is extremely dirty. I just want to gasify wet wood. I want to break branches off trees, shred them, and gasify them.

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Depends what you want to use the gas for. Heating for water or space heating might work but unless you enjoy tearing down engines and unsticking valves I would stick with downdraft and dry wood for engines.

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May have been others I don’t know about but since I’ve been on the site only Joni from the Ukraine was able to pick up fuel from the side of the road. I always found that fascinating but I don’t think it was wood full of sap.

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I don’t think raw wood updraft is possible - wet or dry fuel. It would clog up everything pretty fast - piping included. Flaring straight from a hopper is ok for a little while, but that’s about it.
Even with dry fuel and downdraft we struggle keeping temps up to turn enough steam to hydrogen. I guess you could run wet fuel in a downdraft gasifier with enough condensation ability in the hopper, but it would affect gas quality and efficiency.

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Hello AlexH
Have you working used already oxidization catalytic converters??
In USA vehicles all have had these since the 1980’s.
Then many 90’s and later woodstoves have had these.
Some small engines like chainsaws, and motorcycles have had these.
Some manufacturers treating these as just an add-on exhaust-problem, go-bye-bye, garbage truck.

Actually working catalytic converters are finicky and need a lot of controlled hands holding to function and live.
They only start working when up to thier high internal operating temperstures. HC combustion gasses flowed through them too early, not hot enough yet, will soot them up cover coating the active agents. Then inactive. Soots can build up clogging flow throughs.
Wood stove usually have a cold starting fire, manual bypass passages.
Vehicles in the US from the late 70’s and and it has become the driven need for the cats that bias-skews the whole of vehicle conditions.
From the needs for non-leaded fuels. To especially getting the exhausts flows up to hot ASAP, and not too carburetor/intake cold fuel over-rich. And not too hot working engine enleaned out, too lean. Some fuel has to be sacrificed to give the cat enough fuel for the internal oxidization heat, to be able to temperature boost itself. Many later cats having added pumped in air to boost the combustion heat.
With first a 5yr/50,000 mile guarantee/warranty responsibly on the original vehicle manufacturer, they learned they had to go with electronic fuel injections to get the better finite fuel controls. To keep their under-warrantee “free” cat replacement costs down. Later; that was US EPA extended out to an 8yrs/80,000 mile manufacturers obligation. Then the vehicle manufacturers had to add more sensors, and programed to not just scream out Cat-Danger but actively pull the power and gears away from the operators. And then the manufactures were screaming at the engine oil companies to get the engine-wear saving metallics and calciums out of the oils. Cumulative residue, cat-disablers.

So your idea of outside wrapping the cat elements will simply not get hot enough. Only the lower core of a downdraft gets hot enough. Down in the metals killing part of it, where the wise evolved to shield their metals with ash slope buildups.

Actually the use-limbs-directly off the trees falls down because you are standing in a deep dark negative thermal hole then.
I do harvest and burn a lot of limb-wood. Actually prefer it as long as my bending-over; picking-up-the-many pieces, back and patience holds out:

This limb wood pictured has set for three years mostly off the ground drying/ seasoning. It is very dry coming off of a long summer.
The white trunk splits off of the same tree, the same 3-years; but bark insulated covered did not dry much over the summer. Three years of winter rains soaked trapped inside under that bark. They now exceed the moisture weight of a fresh cut tree.
I aged; and cannot get my wood worked up in our 100 days of drying summer anymore.
And the three trees downed 3 years ago, are in the way if ever we need a well service truck.
So I just had to work them up to get them out of the way. This year, I could with ankle-braces, pain pills and beer . . . next year? Maybe. Maybe not.
And I will burn this wet wood for heat; visibly smokeless; and not glass sooting, using every single “cheat” trick in my experiences.
Get the wet splits crib stacks inside for 2-3 days of drying. Transferred over as last step up too-tight and close to the wood stove side. I feel for dried out then heating up, every time I walk past. Old man; the pee-needs calls me much.
First. I must establish this deep hot char bed with a combination of old boards and limb whiskers.
Dry trunk splits and I could then just it load up and go easy chair nap for 2-3 hours.
Nope. Nope. Wet wood; I have to work the stove then every 3/4 of an hour.
These 30-50% by weight too wet of splits, I have to go with two denser growth, dry branches sections first before every two trunk splits added. Otherwise the still too wet of wood will thermal drag too much for clean combustion. Will be thermal-dragging me down and use up all of the char-coal before the new splits can devolve and make more charcoal as char-bed replenishment.
Without an active charcoal bed you are not thermal-chemically woodgassing. You are steaming and stinky smoking.

So here are some tips.
I assume you are woodgasing to fuel IC engines.
USE the engine heats to condition reduce the limb chunks moisture before gassing.
Expect a much greater shaft power loss than the typical 30-50% reduction.
Use least a 4X oversize the engine if using wetter woods. That is what the Soviet forest equipment did using as-cut green woods.
Plus I expect, they had on-site, keep engine running mechanics.

I am losing at least 1/3 of the possible in-house heating using this too wet of wood. Oh well. Just as long as I have a net gain. I probably will not get my 200-250 days of wood heating now. Be only 100-120. Enough for most any typical grid-down situation.

You can prove for yourself just how difficult as-cut limb wood would be in a wood stove. Especially a wood stove with a built-in cat converter. Soots clog it up for sure.

A downdraft gasifer when fed good pre-dried wood can be very, very simplified.

Good Luck
Steve unruh

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Thank you for your reply, Steve. I’ll cover a few points below just to be clear what my background knowledge here is:

  1. I have operated wood stoves every winter since I was a kid. I’m in my late twenties now but it’s safe to say I understand the dynamics of how they operate, the effect of moisture on the wood, etc.

  2. I get how catalysts work, what they do for internal combustion engines, etc.

What is this soviet forest equipment you’re referring to?

To be clear, I’m just looking to gasify green or otherwise fairly moisture rich wood. Cleaning the gas from an updraft gasifier just seems to be the most feasible approach.

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AlexH.,
use the top of page magnifying glass search tool:
type in “Soviet wood Gasifiers”
the listed results to click open and read are:
“Woodgas videos from around the world” dated Aug '20
“Soviet gasifier vehicles in 1923-1959 I Part2” dated Feb '24
There is a start. Write down the referred to Soviet/Russian alpha-numeric named systems and re-search to get more.
Regards
S.U.

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Directly search up the topic “K12 logging tractor” started in May 2019.
Watch the posted up video. Read through the comments.
You decide.
S.U.

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Here is a link to the topic Steve mentioned. Read the last few posts.

K12 logging tractor - #7 by madflower69?

The biggest problem with burning wet wood is not really the extra tar and soot in the gas, but the fact that the reaction not going to get hot enough. Sure it would still work and it would still be making gas but the heat loss from all that moisture will reduce the volume of gas and efficiency of the reaction.

If it were me I would look into making a charcoal retort like Matt has done. And then build a charcoal gasifier to create the required wood gas. That way you could still the wet wood only running the vented gas back into the reaction to help substitute a percentage of the heat required to convert the charcoal.

Anyway just an idea…

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Sorry. I beg to differ.
All of the guys here who effectively make wood charcoal are not doing it with green sap filled fresh cut woods.
The thermal drag down from having to evaporate off all of that excessive moistures tanks the combustion temperatures. Forcing you to use forced over-airing and sacrifice off a high percentage of the what could be charcoal fuel to supply the extra energy to deal with all of the excessive wood moistures.

I have “made” lots of remaining charcoal and ash piles with larger harvest limb&tops piles. Even once had a huge LinkBelt machine dig up and stumps piles and burnt off at 100 stumps at a time. For six days in a row reducing down 672 stumps off of a 10 acre harvest. In February raining; after four months of winter raining. Huge, huge thing. We weren’t allowed our preferred 10-17 smaller indidiula piles.
These are all brute forcing it.
You guys . . . always thinking just-charcoal it . . . hardwoods majority guys for sure . . .
When you only have mostly resinous, pitchy conifers wood you just have to develop, and operate smarter.
Steve unruh

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The only people I recall, who were supposedly somewhat successful, used exhaust heat to predry the wood.

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Yes it definitely works way better with pre dried wood. With wet wood I think it would still be able to substitute with the fumes from the charcoal but it would definitely not be able to sustain its on its own without adding extra fuel. This is just theoretical and I’ve not actually tried it.

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The first thing I always wonder about is what is it you are producing gas for. A vehicle? a Generator? One is going to require a lot more wood than the other. When I was still experimenting with wood rather than charcoal I built a wood dryer.

It would dry about 20-25 gallons of wood chunks down to about 20 per cent after feeding the Rocket heater for about three hours, but this was not sap wood. It was wood that was already seasoned for a few months. Still it was a pain in the ass to load and unload and I eventually got tired of messing with it because the rocket heater required constant feeding. Just mentioning it as an option.

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You might want to look up the term monorator. This was a WWII modification someone made to an Imbert style gasifier, which allowed very wet fuel to be used.
Rindert

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Belive me AlexH. no one is laughing about your desire to base on limb woods as-cut; or limbs storms brought down onto the ground.

Many of us have started with that same end goal in mind.
For no-one where productive amounts of trees do actually grow; the sun don’t shine every day. And only sun drying weather occurs seasonally.
Wood stoving; wood furnacing; wood gasifing for engine fuels; charcoal making for a variety of reasons the realties are you will always run out of the “easy-to-use” perfectly sun dried woods.

Every single guy here on the DOW who actually uses thier system on a near daily basis will complain they’ve had to shut down; or limit their usage because they ran out of pre-dried wood, or pre-made wood charcoal.

So to me a lifelong wood-for-heat guy the real end goal has never been how to make the most genius, perfect, stand alone wood gasifier.
it has been how to when Needs-Musts come knocking at your door you could make-do with year around found woods.
Needs-Musts are Here&Now biting realities. And do not allow time for perfect sun/solar woods drying.

Any way you slice it using woods-for-power you are going to be picking up and shifting; location transferring; the to-be-used wood bulk 2-3-4 times. To get it out of the shades into more favorable sun exposed spots. 2X there. Then once sun and winds dried; it will be shifting it to rainy and snow season protection, into a wood shed. Another 2X. Then the moving it in daily use amounts to the wood energy converter (wood stove; furnace; gasifier; charcoal maker).

Lots and lots of steps saving tricks to all of that.

And anyone who insists on just throwing away any of the process heats in any of the converters to usable power steps; is just not thinking of the whole process; as a process.

Some few have used produced gas heat for wood drying. From the 1930’s to now the 21st Century. Some of the German tractors did use on-board forced wood chunks drying . . . Dave Nichols 21st Century pickup truck systems did this on board using produced gas heat.
Wayne Keith with his evolved engine exhaust heating transfer system is farming out a formerly wasted heat. Putting it back into his gasifier systems to allow him the thermal overhead to then be able to use relatively wet woods in truly wet season conditions. His extensively evolved hopper monorator system.

Air cooled electric generator man-me I love to use the already blown off heat from the generator engine and electrical power heads. Truly free heats most all ignore focusing on just some ideal gasifer system. Their thinking outlooks bias skewed by a lifetime of served up to them of refined fuels. You wanna make the best cakes . . . used the expensive cake flour. NOT home whole ground flour out of a grinder mill.
Water cooled engine guys I am always demonstrating and encouraging to DO some input woods conditioning with all of their engines coolant throw-away heats.

I’ve actually had an influence impact on some with my outlook. Ben Peterson. He got better and better on his pre-Book systems first using produced gas heats for input wood conditioning. Then on his total engine-generator head enclosures/covers were tip forward bins for wheelbarrow amounts of input woods chunks drying and warming, pre-heating, last step just before hopper filling.

IF you use as much a percentages of gasifier produced gas “need-to-cool” heats; and the blown off thrown away engine/power systems heats there is enough energy to dry green cut and picked up wood fuels.
Not an opinion. Trials tested and proven.

Steve unruh

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I hear you, Steve. I don’t think anyone is laughing about my desire. Given that any wood fuel for engine gas production needs some conditioning / processing, I think I’m going to start with charcoal.

It seems the only way to dry your fuel quickly is to maximize its contact with some convective heat source, whether that be from the reactor itself or from some outside source of power.

The more I think about this method, the more complex potential designs become. Frankly, it seems like a probably a lifelong engineering problem to produce a “raw wood” gasifier with an effective drying system AND clean gas, AND managing to maintain high enough reactor temps.

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Also just back to my topic of nickel catalysts… You can BUY pure nickel foam online and it’s not all that expensive. Say I shorted some current through it to get it really glowing, and maybe added some steam… sources online seem to suggest that this would be effective at cracking tars, even from an updraft system. Sure, you would still need a way to dry the wood fuel, but maybe this is promising?

I swear I’m not trying to re-invent the wheel here. I’m not trying to change the world. I just want to try something creative.

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Alex - look up a Virginia Tech solar wood kiln. My head design starts there.

It is intended for drying lumber and so aims to avoid checking and such by stretching out the drying over some weeks. For fuel chunks we don’t need to worry about that.

I would use a counterflow heat exchanger to get very hot air in the dryer with no more moisture than the outside air could hold when cool, basically an HRV. That would do too much too fast for lumber, but again, for fuel it is a good thing. You don’t want an ERV - those would transfer exhaust moisture into the intake air. HRVs are pretty easy to make at these temperatures… regular plastic sheeting would do the trick. Plastic isn’t particularly good with thermal conductivity, but neither is air.

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