Woody, you’re right. But. Following that train to the station would have you buying into a brand new pickup and filling it up with regular whenever the gauge says “buy”. Wood gassing (surely) is by nature a System-bucking venture. The Joy, the Bliss in passing gas stations derives from all the work, determination and investment we put into the venture. For example, it is kind of fun to drive past a filling station running on gasoline and give Exon the finger. It’s also fun to simply walk past Shell and flip them the bird. But to achieve Bliss Consciousness you just have to build up a woodgasser, chop up the wood and then tool past the pump.
Following this train, the more System-bucking work, determination and investment one puts in, the more bliss one gets out (while flipping off BP). So, it’s possible that the more scrounging and the more ingenious solutions at making instruments and valves, and even the more prep time required by rusty old crap, then the more satisfaction in the bird flipping. Scrounging beats groveling (at the feet of Andrew Carnegie)
But. It’s also possible that a guy can sabotage himself with all that junk and just end up with some prehistoric monstrosity. In which case he’s got to be smiling broadly while passing and gesturing to the clueless attendant.
In my experience, the worst thing about woodgassing with junk is that you’re always fighting on another front. You can never be quite sure if the effect you’re seeing is due to design error or material failure. This has been especially true at joints and connections where old crappy steel gives crappy welds and happenstance combinations of shapes make problematic seals.
And just as bad is the effect where the wisdom/experience gained while working with junk is always tainted by the junk itself. Such that the advice I offer is as much about junk as about wood gas.
I know that my projects don’t cost much, because I don’t have much! A little here and a little there for gas and wire and silicone and silicone and silicone. My wife and I live on $700 a month social security. And the woodgas has to come out of that. So there’s a lot of scrounging and head scratching.
And, Woody, I especially prize the advice of experts who aren’t confused about materials and are able to keep focused on the wood gas. That’s where efficiency beats scrounging.
John
Thanks for that real life post John. We all do what we have to in order to keep going. So far the gasifier swap from the last truck to this one has worked out OK, but as time goes on anything can happen. I think we hit the one thousand mile mark on the Dakota.
In defense of scrounging - don’t always assume it is a “cost” - some actually enjoy the experience. There was a time (not any more) that if I told my wife at breakfast that she would have to spend the day going all over town to all the junk and antique shops looking for specific things, she would light up immediately and wonder what I was going to do for dinner.
On the other hand, I have also learned that it is often cheaper to just let go of the money and get good stuff up front, rather than trying to skate by on the cheap . . .
How about splitting out the “scrounged or picked” expenses and the “new material”. These will vary from build to build, but some useful averages may come out of this thread.
I have seen that my most precious resource (my time) could be spent better if I had a better workshop setup and better tools. Tools (or a shop) cost money up front but lower the total cost to produce finished goods for multiple projects. (Example - I bought my mig welder for a car project over 15 years ago !) I would consider wire and gas a cost, but not the welder since I already have it… etc.
I have to work outside, and miss many hours that could be spent on the project because of rain, cold weather or darkness. This is delayed gratification for sure… PS I want a plasma cutter and a garage for Christmas if anyone is wondering, I have been really good all year.
I figure woodgassers are fairly independent and contrary and will do what they want in the end.
I like to scrounge on some things and that was learned from a long gone oldtimer that helped me when I restored a model A coupe many years ago.It was a whole lot of fun digging through parts and prepping.
At other times,all new and stainless would be a better choice as time allows.
It’s a good thing to see the diversity of the woodgas systems here and on youtube from pristine to cobbled and I hope we never become cookie cutters.
Woodgas would be no fun if there were rules and bylaws.
What did your truck cost, Paul?
The old ford was $800 and there was probably another $1200-1800.I just asked my wife and she said the bills came in dribs and drabs.She would see the welder as part of the cost but it was something needed for other things.
I bought a bit of stainless and black iron and other fittings,abs pipe,inverter and a fan.
The old truck was a rusty piece of junk but when I was building the gasifier,I still wondered if it would actually work or if I was being publicly punked so not too much was invested.
I am swapping trucks now and will use the same gasifier(no tar to speak of) but will build a cooling rack like many of you here use and a few other changes.My wife said she’ll keep a file on this unit for costs and I’ll post them.
.
Paul, GREAT to hear from you. Hope all is well in your new digs. I probably have 500 in my trailer or so … Lots of time and now I need to find another vehicle to pull it … The gasifiers seem to last longer than the cars and trucks … Mike L
Hey Mike ,
At our age our hope is to outlast the gasifier.
I don’t gamble buying green bananas any more .
Woody, Do you use a slip roll to form the 20 gauge steel or are you able to form tanks out of it without one? Thanks.
Marvin,
If you use 20 gauge steel you can build a form and use nylon straps to roll cylinders. We decided to use square shapes from now on because the truck bed is square and the cans can be custom sized to fit. Use a brake from Harbor Freight and it will pay for itself on the first build. The square shape required some bracing to add strength to work against collapsing from the vacuum. So far my cans on my Dakota are over a year and a half old with no signs of decay. The barrels we get down here are much thinner than other places and they fail more quickly. The 20 gauge welds better than the thinner material. Hope this helps.
Thanks Woody, This helps a lot. Going tomorrow to find material for the heat exchanger and filter.
If anyone is considering building a complete turn key gasifier within a certain budget, they need to read all the great posts in this list.
So far, I’m ahead on costs thanks to local friends, friends on this site and craigslist.
Firetube (enough for 3) $70, all the fins that I and anyone nearby needs…free (1-1/4’ banding), 3 drums with lids…free from a friend who collects scrap steel. Donor vehicle…1992 Dakota in amazing condition for 237k miles…$700, old Miller Legend gen/welder (soon to be converted to run on wood gas)…$300.
My business has paid for my wire feed welders(3) and my tigs(2) and the plasma cutter.
I fix motorcycles, I don’t sell them… I just do all aspects of metric bike maintenance. I’d be out of business by now if I depended on sales of new bikes!
Like my dad said, choose a career you’d do for free… or… do you want to be rich or successful?
Gathering the materials and making them work is a reward in itself, yes it costs, but what would you be doing otherwise? You will likely make it “worth your while” or you’d find a better way…right?
So far, the best bang for the buck was spent when I joined the premium side of Driveonwood.com !!!
Thanks all for the great insight!
Tim
Tim,
That’s a great post. Not all the gasifiers on this “What does it cost thread” are the Keith type which takes way more time and steel. The steel for the core of the WK gasifier has to be clean to weld air tight seams. The choice is whether to spend the time grinding rusty metal clean or just buying new steel that welds nicely. If a weld lets loose on the gasifier interior, then you get a cutting torch effect that destroys the steel around the leak very quickly and robs the engine of the fuel it needs to run properly. Make sure you check your gasifier for air leaks at all building stages and save yourself some grief.
Good luck on your build.
Woody,
Thank you, I agree with you! I chose nice fresh (with some work) steel for the firetube, my top plate is fairly new too. The fins weld nicely to the fresh steel too. A balance of new and recycled metals, each where needed most.
I just watched the video regarding air leaks inside… for the 4th time, nothing worse than repairing what you could’ve built better to begin with. When in doubt, build it stout!
I am still searching for a “good” hot water tank for my housing.
Again, thank you for your posts and insight,
Tim
Henry, Thanks for a truthful post on actual build costs.
Hello Henry ,
Sorry to be so long getting back with you but I have been going wide open all day.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
My apologies if I may have mislead you or anyone else on the cost of the gasifiers . Sometime in an interview I don’t have time to give any deep thought before talking. And there is never enough time to get in all the corrections or explanation I would like to give . Us old folks like to use the excuse of having a senior moment. I also would suggest to Chris that if anyone listening to the Power Hour interview bought a book based on the statement about the cost of materials to offer a refund. I meant to mislead no one .
Old habits are hard to break and over the years I have been ask the question of cost several times when I was driving some of the older gasifiers. The older gasifiers the material cost was less than $500 at the time but I realized prices have climbed quite a bit in 8 or 9 years. I had to go back over the interview to see what I did say ( senior moments again) . I mention scrap yards and recycling four times and that on my gasifier I allowed $500 for materials. I have never used a new piece of steel with the exception of some twenty gallon drums on the last two or three builds. I went to a local drum dealer to buy some drums and he would not charge me anything for them ( I gave him some rotted sawdust years before ) I may have an art of just scavenge up material , Ammo boxes for instance , I bought a truck load once and think I may have about a quarter apiece in them , The wife and I both have bought many items at yard sales for the gasifier for pennies on the dollar . Flea markets I find many items including two inch hose connections in six foot lengths making each connection cost about a quarter. Also bolt ,nuts , washers , threaded rod , springs , fasteners are sold by the pound . We knew there was no way we could reproduce each yard sale and flea market that these item were bought from so the last vehicle I had to build from parts that we could have a vender and part number to pass on to others and the book.
On earlier builds I would visit a junkyard for all the choke cables and switches, For the burn tubes I visited a local company that installs big signs and he gave me several burn tubes on two different occasions . At the scrapyard I have found five gallon buckets full of different size metal fittings ( some two inch ) and they charged me just for the weight even after I brought it to their attention of the value. One local scrap yard called me to say he had a lot of the tubing I used , I loaded up a truckload of it and he charged me no more than he paid for it. On another occasion I had a couple of junk batteries in my way and threw them in his pile and he refused any money when I picked up a couple of tanks. Also many cables on junk lawn mowers for only the weight cost. When the word got out that I was using tanks I have had people to come by and they gave them to me . On one occasion a friend hauled a pickup truck load of tanks here to off load.
I have never considered the electricity , welding gas and wire , tools to be part of the cost of the materials but included in the labor or shop time which I always stress the build is labor intensive…
In short I have built a few gasifiers near or less than $500 in material . Building from the material list in the book I don’t think I could. I know that the value of the gasifier has got to be based on the replacement cost and not what it actually may have cost a certain individual to build.
Yes you are correct and again I apologize if I mislead you or anyone else. And if there was anyway to go back on the air to correct or explain the statement I would.
Thanks
Wayne
'Sokay Mr Wayne
I think what you are running into is a difference in languge and even lifestyle from living large and Rural on an older loaded farm. I live on the 21 acre remaining downsized remains of a 120 acre three generation dairy farm. I’ve seen a picture of your “possibles” wall shop storage side. And once a glimpse of your scrap metal “yard”. Ha we do’t call them piles when they are nose to toes of generations of used up equipment. Rural farming really is the ethic of “Use it up, wear it out, make do ,or do without.”
Sisters father-in-law built a whole 80 foot by 100 foot new replacement barn with bolted through wooden girders with all of the bolts from stripped out trucks and tractors - no four the same, sleeved for length with sections of old cut 1/2 water pipe. He only bought the 6x6 treated poles and concrete, new roofing felt and three tab shingles for the roof. All else was site cut lumber.
Five genration family farm 1/4 mile south of me is next to the area community Graveyard one of thier elders donated 'bout 60 years ago. Visiting Dad for advice, I stepped back into thier joining regrow woods for a nature call and stumbled into thier drove till dropped auto row dating back from the 50’s to the 70’s. Most don’t understand old Rural you stash and set aside for araining day all used up equipment - too distance expensive and rainy day valuable to haul off for just mere scrap money. Firewood is the quick cash money. Out of that row and the old long chicken barn next door with clapped out tractors and farm trucks I am sure a fellow could make up 90% of a WK system.
Old farm nighbor accross the county road from this one has a display row of old 12 50’s-70’s 5-10 ton trucks, 7 old gas tractors and two old diesel “Cats” been sitting for years. Plus the old barn full. Up the same County road is the 50’s years in business old logging euipment repair shop shuttered down since the 80’s National Forest harvesting shut-outs. Full of shop equipment and old logging equipment. Either place has the metals to again to 90% builds a WK gasifier system. Farm-Show reader will understand.
Only things a fella need new would be the PCV, blowers, and a few of the guages.
Most fellas living in the new, made-up, cleaned-up, modern world do not understand how surrounded by generations of manufactured resouces saved back how that kind of fellow with the old ethic even thinks.
Ha! Ha! In the auto shops late 90’s through 2005 in slack periods when others skipped out home early, or ran into the lunch room to computor game or Internet surf I’d be out stripping out scrounged and held back take off auto window lifts, electric motors, trottle bodies and anything else of all the specialized nuts, bolts, plastic clips, rubber gomment, clips and such and sorting out to go in my clear plastic peanutbutter and mayonaise bottles. All sorted by catagory and type. Come the dropped, lost, missing, broken, did-not-come with it time, then dumped out on a rag, quick sort and my jobs got done, and done right. No waiting for a bolt house “wrong bolt” “not availble” never get replacement. I got lots of jealousy over my advantage, and some hat in hand outright begging. Got squeeled on to the big boss Owner and told to take it all my “crap” home. Sure. “You gonna pay me by the hour to drive home and back now ever time your Parts Manager comes out begging for a clip or such out my stash to save 3 days waiting for a ship in from Auburn Hills Michigan?” Master Techs can be such smart asses. I was still kinnda pissed been ordered to stand out front of the building and jump up and down and holler for his TV ad. Kept my stuff. Never did see a pay rate bump after that though. Worth it to be able to show a santized Urban Yuppie not everthing of value can be just easily bought out.(me)
You hang in there man.
Rgards
Steve Unruh
Hello Henry,
Rest assured you ruffled no feathers here. I agree with every word you said.
I do get aggravated at myself often for not taking time to explain things or too much shooting from the hip and very bad communication skills. Chris may be posting some videos shortly of an event in North Carolina just as an example of how fast the questions are coming and competing with a motor running and a dog barking. Also hard of hearing from younger and dumber days of palying with flashbangs and semilators The questions are coming none stop and the reflex response sets in with some of the answers not being 100% correct .
I have said many times gasification is not for everybody but I think it will work very well for about 1% of the US population. The percent of the population that are smart enough to understand and drive a wood powered vehicle may be in position where they are wealthy enough they could care less if gasoline went to $10 a gallon. The smart people that are surrounded with resources that coincide with gasification but without a lot money may be a good candidate. Keep in mind 1% in the US would be three MILLION vehicles.
Sorry I didn’t make it to the hangout. I worked the V-10 all day yesterday and had to run errors in town last night . I only shut the woodburner down after using it’s head lights through the pasture searching for a helfer in labor ( all turned out well) late last night .
Thanks
Wayne
Henry, I admire your way with words. You would also make a good recording secretary with your accurate sum up of the hang out. Thanks for your input.
Don Mannes