CHP project for my small farm in Norway

[ramjet]

Hi again Henry, I took a look on the prices on 20kW inverters and decided to go with my first idea, 5k dollars is over my budget for now, I might find something second hand but…
The DSE 8620 is a cheaper way of monitoring the grid and distribuating power, it even has governot output from the pannel.

[https://www.deepseaplc.com/genset/load-sharing-synchronising-control-modules/dse8620]

[zardoz86]

I believe what the customer is trying to ask is whether the utility interconnection relay (“Utility Mains Decoupling Relay”) manufactured by Deep Sea Electronics is an approved device. I have reviewed the attached data sheet from the manufacturer’s website for the DSEP-100 USA and it does not appear that is has been tested to any of the applicable US IEEE/ANSI standards. Even though I see Deep Sea Electronics has a local USA office in Rockford, IL they are a European company located in the UK. Thus is appears their relays have only been tested to European standards and not any of the applicable US IEEE/ANSI standards. In addition I am not aware of any relays which are manufactured by Deep Sea Electronics that meet the applicable US standards required to be approved as an interconnection relay.

However in reviewing the email string below it also appears that the customer is installing an OutBack Radian GS8048A inverter (8 kW) which is UL 1741SA tested and listed and on the list of ComEd approved inverters. Thus the installation would still meet the requirements to qualify as Level 1 lab certified installation and no other protection would be required even if the Outback Radian inverter is used in conjunction with the DSEP-100 USA interconnection relay. If the DSEP-100 USA interconnection relay however is used with a non-lab certified inverter that is not on the list of ComEd approved inverters than it would not be acceptable. Hopefully that makes sense. The other caveat although it is outside of ComEd’s purview is that the AHJ (Electrical Inspector) may not accept the DSEP-100 USA interconnection relay if it is not an UL/ANSI listed device. To summarize the short answer is the OutBack Radian inverter is lab certified and meets the requirements for a Level 1 interconnection. The Deep Sea Electronics DSEP-100 USA interconnection relay however is not an approved interconnection relay nor does it appear any of the other Deep Sea Electronics relays are approved relays for interconnection. Hopefully all of this makes sense. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns.

[ramjet]

Fortunately for me I live under European standards
Our guide books (NEK400) say that as loong as I can proove the functionality of the equipment I can use it.
I just have to see what the rest of the industry is using here in Norway and Europe, the inverter just cost way too much at the moment.

[Matt]

Thats exactly what we want to do!! For higher voltage applications most charger inverters are not to task, so the PV inverters are the go to plus you can get them very big and you can very easily tie multiple generators together into one PV. So I would be very interested to learn more if you have expertise in this area.

Your success in synchronizing a small generator to grid with “out” the aid of an inverter running “woodgas” will be very challenging at the very least. Use an inverter of some sort and save yourself from synchronizing equipment this is a feat on gasoline let alone running on woodgas.

[ramjet]

Hi Matt, could you give me advice to what PV inverter to use that does not cost a arm and a leg?
To grid tie energy over 10kW with inverters just look so expensive to me.

[Matt]

Thats what Im trying to find out as well. This is something Ive been wanting to develop for sometime. Koen or David would be the go to guys for that advise as they are mentoring myself in this part of my endevour.

[Matt]

An inverter will be cheaper than synch equipment. I was quoted from Cummins well over $3600.00 just for the controls. this does not account for the required switch gear that is spoken about above.

[ramjet]

In my head this price I can live with: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dlawngarden&field-keywords=dse8620&rh=n%3A2972638011%2Ck%3Adse8620

1800 dollars and you can hock multiple generators togeather.
Also the energy loss rectifying and then feeding it through a inverter is bad.

[Matt]

You could get two Schneider inverters running at 7 kW each that can be stacked together and feed direct to grid for around $6000.00 USD If you can find a re seller to get you a deal on them.

https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-xw-hybrid-inverter/

[ramjet]

Ill draw up some electrical drawings for you when my watch and night shift is over next week.
The switch gear is peanuts in price compared to the inverter.

[Matt]

Actually you only need one Schneider unit. I forgot in pass through mode it can output up to 12kW. You only need one 48 volt bank for it to work.

[ramjet]

Here is the manual for the DSE8620 all the posibility of monitoring the gasifier and governor output is so great

[http://www.haiwaytech.com/site/files/dse8620-operators-manual.pdf]

[Matt]

So do you already have a three phase generator head? If not this is where an inverter system comes out ahead in cost. Because you can go with a lower cost single phase generator that is lower cost to feed into the inverter. The inverter will output in three phase while using the batteries as a damper leaving your gasifier system with less restriction. Weve have already tried using electronic governor controls and they were too aggressive for wood gas systems. When more power is demanded the system will want instantly and the wood gas system will not respond that fast. This may also cause the gasifier to crash if it does not have a large turn down ratio.

[ramjet]

Yes Matt, if you read on the top my idea is to use a asynchron generator head, that is basically a standard 3phase motor you can find anywhere in the world, it would self synchronise to the grid but to get it approved for grid tie you need safety switch equipment.

[Matt]

Ok got ya, that will be interesting to see

[ramjet]

I would just love to see that in your equipment some day

[Matt]

Yeah Im all about simpler and easier. Always open to better ideas

[ramjet]

The cost of your equipment would go down with thousands of dollars.

[ramjet]

In fact you dont need a governor when using a asynchron generator as the load is a constant, you would need a kill switch how ever for when the grid fall out.

[Matt]

I doubt that though the generator head we use we get very low cost. The inverters are not in the standard pricing so they have no effect on base price they cost extra. The issue is like what has been explained with all he hoops you have to jump through to sync the machines and the added cost of governor controls is much higher. The mechanical controls work just fine with the inverters and they are already set up to meet most standards world wide. Once you understood dealing with this type of thing at that level then cost skyrockets as I would need to hire people just to handle setting up machines in foreign lands.