Masonry heaters

IMO why not do outside dual Keith gasifiers outside? You could pipe it into large thermal mass fire place & also hook it up to a tankless hot water heater for thermal mass of water. This way stove is right by your wood pile, but gas is where ever u need it in house. Or if you are designing inside there are gasifying wood boilers that suck up the smoke with a vent fan so you can load indoors. A Keith designed for indoors would be awesome.

Since you will be off grid you might also want to consider an open loop water to water heat pump. It is a heat pump that hooks into your well water they get COP of 4-5 much higher than regular heat pumps & would be 4-5x more efficient way to use your dump load from solar to heat up hot water. Not going to be effected by the cold like regular heat pump

I would also look into ERV or HRV system for your house it’s basically mechanically ventilated outside airflow that goes thru a heat exchanger with inside air, allowing proper ventilation, but keeping the heat inside.

For efficiencies’ sake it’s kind of a rabbit hole tho, like the benefit of a gasifier going to a tankless condensing water heater that is collecting the heat to the point of condensation ~96% & outputting exhaust that can be vented thru pvc pipe… vs what you may lose by locating gasifier outside. Most fire places do not collect the heat to that degree even with thermal mass, exhaust is still going to be plenty hot. And if you were really down to it I bet you could get an extra .5-1kw from a set of TEG on the chimney if you go fireplace route.

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Just a word of caution regarding heat pumps. When we bought the place, it came with a central hvac system with an open loop water to air heat pump. I have the plots— the cop is great, but for ours, you have to include running the well pump at a pretty high duty cycle, and then there’s the 500 gallons per hour when the heat pump is running. That takes it from everyday-use to backup-when-we’re-away use. It is a 25 year old system. YMMV. We like our woodstove :slightly_smiling_face:
Kent

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There is a lot of very good info about Masonry Heaters here.

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Not sure about other places but her in MN the open loop systems had a much higher failure rate… mostly pumps and whatnot. Due to mineral content of water.

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Air to air heat pumps have improved so much in recent years that the ground loop systems are just not competitive anymore.

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An 8" furnace vent is HUGE! I have a 1960’s 200,000 BTU input furnace in my home and it utilizes a 7" vent.
A natural flow furnace likely doesn’t need much draft. The bad part of a tall chimney is that they continue to draw upon the home even when the furnace is not burning - creating a vacuum that pulls in cold air. I have 3 chimney’s on my home. The furnace was connected to a brick chimney with a 7" id round clay liner. The chimney created so much draft that it would draw the flames up off the burners and the furnace would rumble from the nearly blowtorch flame profile. Frost would form on the inside walls of the basement as a result of the excessive draft causing cold air leaking into the home.
I ended up using a smaller chimney with a T in the vent pipe that has a 5" vent to the outside so that the chimney could draw air from outside rather than out of the home…
I sold masonry chimney supplies for over 30 years. I never heard anyone have to supply a furnace with more than 7" of flue opening. In fact - the furnace and water heater could be vented into the same flue as long as they were located at the same elevation.

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It is a 1500,000 BTU Yukon furnace from the late 70s 78 IIRC. It is both oil and wood in one furnace.

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I have a six inch, sch 40 steel flue that’s thirty foot long. I guess because of the convoluted smoke path above my fire box it doesn’t excessively draw. Actually it’s just about right. When I do get smoke after start up it sort of lazily drifts out of the top of the flue. It has never caused me any problems other than requiring a cleaning three times during the six and a half months it’s in service.

In the mid-seventies I had a job installing elevator fronts and doors in a 700 foot tall hotel in Detroit. One elevator shaft ran none stop to a restaurant at the top of the building. Express with no floor stops and not open at the top. To get into the shaft from the ground floor required a temporary hydraulic opener to move a six by eight foot panel out of the way and with it open the suction was so great that no materials could be located in front of it or it would suck them in. The movement of the air made a weird howling sound. You had to kind of sneak into the opening from the edges. Once inside with the door closed it was totally calm. I think with the door on my stove closed it’s pretty much the same but I’m always feeding some air into the firebox from some one inch opening in the back of the box.

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Oh OK solid fuel… My 7" 35ft tall chimney was used for a coal furnace. I use it for wood now. A clean 7" round is sufficient for solid fuel in an airtight furnace. Problems arise when not kept clean as any buildup of soot rapidly reduces open area to below needed for when the door is open.

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Chris I went and tracked down those kits for a masonary heater today. I need to seriously look into replacing my kitchen wood stove. But at close to $8,000 plus the outside skin being a separate item those masonry heater kits are too expensive for me. I suspect you could do better buying refractory bricks if you have the masonary skill to build with them.

In comparison these are probably the best of the modern cook stoves i have seen where you get a decent fire box that will take regular fire wood for heating.

I have a feeling at those prices i will either rebuild my old stove this spring or simply buy a modern wood stove and pass on the oven as nice as it is those prices are just too much for me at the moment.

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Thanks for this site link on the woodfired cooking stoves DanA.
Digging into it was an Italian? brand de manicor.
Thier Atmosfera, Domino, and Eco models have only 25MM side clearances.
Means they are made to foods cook, without cooking the human cook. Not be whole house heaters. Rare birds indeed. What some (me) are looking for.
Regards
Steve Unruh

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Steve here is a better link on the cook stove it looks like. Nice heating stove at 65,000 BTU i just can’t convince myself it is a wise investment with my current setup here on the farm.
I am not sure but i think this might the the same company that made the old Vermont casting stoves that where very good wood stoves.

The Vermont Bun Baker XL Wood Cook Stove comprises 550 pounds of high quality cast-iron and steel construction, so you know it will provide longstanding durability and strength. It can accept a max wood length of 20 inches, and it also yields 65,000 BTUs at 78 percent heating efficiency. Add the beneficial luxury of this wood cook stove to your home today!

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I know someone who bought one of these Elmira cookstoves from this place. They love it. Looking at the prices, when they bankrupt Social Security and my pension i’m going to start building these things.

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Weather’s getting cold again, so this is on my mind once more. I’ve revised my requirements slightly, in that I don’t think I want a cooktop in the masonry stove. We’ll be better off with an outdoor kitchen in summer and possibly a normal wood cookstove for winter use. That said, a black oven for baking would be easy to add, and should provide lots of fun during heating season, making pizzas and baking bread etc.

I’ve studied through the existing literature on DIY masonry builds, and it looks like most folks are using one of several designs by Peter van den Berg. He is a genius as far as I can see, basically the Wayne Keith of masonry stoves. There are three main designs, the Batch Box Rocket (BBR), the Double Shoebox Rocket 2 & 3 (DSR2 & DSR3). This combined with the concept of “bells” (large open chambers for heat absorption) gives me somewhere to start. For my usage, the DSR2 will work best. The upper chamber will serve as a black oven, which is desirable. This is the cross section of a DSR2 (from Peter’s site here: Batchrocket.eu - Designs)

I still need to incorporate hydronics as not every room of the house will be able to “see” the heater, and therefore I’ll wind up with cold spots. I really like the heater/boiler that Dan Allard linked to: Lopez Labs - Masonry Hydronic Heating. This shows me that a properly designed heater will be able to radiate directly as well as heat plenty of water for distribution. The important design feature here is that the cold water is AWAY from the combustion zone. Putting cold water jackets in the firebox is asking for trouble, as several folks have experienced. Instead, I will use the DSR2 core to create hot gases, which will circulate around the heat exchanger as well as the masonry for heating.

Here’s a first draft of the heater design. Not 100% to scale, just looking for feedback on the flow path:

The small two-chamber unit in the center is the DSR2 core. Hot gases exit the top front slot, into the first bell. Gases circulate in the bell, giving up heat to the top masonry first, as they cool they will fall to the bottom near the rear exit. The water heat exchanger is in this section to pick up the most heat, yet be outside the combustion area and so not influence the burn at all. This exchanger is plumbed in as a thermosyphon to the storage tank above it.

Cooler gases reaching the bottom will flow through the rear gap and up behind the first bell into the second larger bell. This space is much larger to extend the residence time of the gases. It also contains a large uninsulated water storage tank. Gases will transfer heat to the masonry first, then to the tank - but only if the water is cold. When the water is warm, it will not absorb heat, but won’t lose any either. If the water becomes too hot, it should begin to shed heat to the masonry. I will of course have safety valves etc. This water will then circulate out to the radiant flooring system.

The gas continues down the side of the second bell, into the third bell, which is a bench. Flow once again has reduced, increasing residence time. It is a dead end, meaning gases will flow in the top left, cool, then back out the bottom left. The bench should get warm but not too hot to sit on. Gases once cooled enough will drop to the bottom, to exit via a slot near the base. (Dead end bench idea from here: MHA News - 2015 Meeting at Wildacres)

Behind the stove, you can see the slot admits gasses into a manifold, which goes to the final flue pipe. You can also see a bypass valve, which connects back to the first bell. This should improve cold starts if necessary, by shortening the path and drawing directly from the flue.

Here’s the Sketchup model if anyone wants to get a better view:

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Chris i will definitely be following this closely. I would still love to build one of these heaters for my old farm house but unfortunately i lack the resouces to put into rebuilding that house right now.
I don’t think i can be much help on the smoke path. I personally like the idea of the white over which is closer to the combustion chamber but the smoke flows under and around it instead of through it. Probably gives less of that good wood smoke flavor but you can open it while you are burning the fire to either get quicker heat into the room or to cook while the fire is burning. I think you have made a wise choice not including the cook top i fear they want more of a rocket stove so you get quick heat and then no more heat. In the old days here they would take the cook stove outside for the summer kitchen. That is the cook stove that is still here today but not hooked up.
I think the core kits that you provide the facing stone or brick for are a decent price now for a masonry heater and close to the cost of the refractory brick to make it from scratch but you have the advantage of a pre designed system you stack for the core. I wish i knew someone who was trained in building those heater i would love to assist someone in a build at some point they are very cool old technology to me.

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I do too, but unfortunately they don’t seem to reach the temperatures required to cook a pizza. To get that hot, flames have to touch the surfaces you are baking on. These heaters have a short firing cycle, it shouldn’t be a big deal to wait until the fire goes out to use the oven.

I’m really happy with the performance I’m seeing with Peter van den Berg’s designs, that’s enough reason to go with it. Also their community seems very knowledgeable and comfortable with one-off designs like this. I’ll probably cross post this to their forum and see what feedback I get there.

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Pizza is definitely important it is one of the big reasons i would want it.

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Looks good Chris, just MHO I would have it so you could block off all paths, not only for cold starts, but it would give you a choices for different heat needs. In our old house we spent many winter days with the windows open. :hot_face:

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That looks like a great design, Chris. Am I seeing it right, that the Double Shoebox is a Batch Box with a horizontal burn chamber above it? I think the Batch Box is what makes a rocket mass heater or masonry heater reasonable to use. Maybe the masonry heaters have always had the equivalent of a Batch Box, but the rocket mass heaters with a rocket stove burner seem like they would need an awful lot of attention to keep them going.

Using bells instead of a labyrinth should simplify construction and cleaning. The bell bench makes a lot more sense to me than stovepipe. Moving the heat exchanger to the first bell is great too. No quenched combustion and condensation in the burner, no fried heatex.

One thing that’s interesting to me about the Batch Box: the flow changes direction, but the cross-sectional areas for primary air, fuel chamber, secondary air, and burn chamber are not that different from a TLUD. Fundamental principles at work, I guess.

Thanks for the drawing!

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Correct. The firebox on the bottom is identical to the BBR (Batch Box Rocket) and scales up or down according to the same rules. The difference is that the BBR riser becomes a horizontal chamber. It apparently performs better than the original BBR with less height, and as I mentioned provides for a black oven if desired.

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