I guess if they get the solid state battery working IE the electrolyte is a solid, a lot of problems go away as far as fires, cold cranking, etc from lion batteries. Here is an article on some of the research that was released.
Good discussion.
Been busy with other stuff for a while.
Now back.
I am also intrigued by the Aquion battery technology.
In general, a very interested in any sort of âhome brewâ battery tech. Wish we could come up with a battery equivalent of the Keith Gasifier.
My thoughts are that battery technology is the Achilles heel of almost all alternative energy systems.
For off-grid applications, we are less interested in bulk/weight vs. cost, reliability & longevity.
You know those big plastic tanks in a metal cage? Like round-up and other agricultural chemicals come in? I think they are around 275 gallons or so. I can get those free or very cheap.
Would make a heck of a stationary liquid cell.
You could make some monster lead-acid cells that way.
I bought a book on lead-acid battery construction.
Unfortunately, the cost of the lead is still very significant, and then you have the âmessâ issue.
Interested in learning more about salt water cells.
Even if energy density isnât the best, wouldnât matter so much in stationary applications.
3 Likes
In the 12vdc yahoo group there is someone who has constructed nickel iron batteries with each 2 volt cell contained in a 50 gallon plastic barrel. He has used nickel and iron plates. Details are sketchy but their capacity would be hugeâŠ
4 Likes
I have been doing alot of reading on batteries lately. I am thinking about putting in an off grid system here this summer. From what I have read the cheapest per kilowatt right now is the Tesla powerwall 2. But it is a different lithium based battery then the Panasonic based 18650 cells tesla has used in the past. I read it was the same chemistry as the Samsung batteries that where recalled. The chemistry is more energy dense then lithium ion but not as stable if over charged. Lithium cobalt if I remember right tonight. The powerwall 2 does come with a built in inverter which is a big savings but I couldnât find the specs for the inverter so I donât know what kind of a load it will support. I didnât price flooded lead acid because I wonât put batteries that will out gas in the house and they donât take the cold up here very well. I priced the agm and aquion batteries. Once you size based on depth of discharge aquion actually comes out ahead. The two are close.
I also priced collecting used laptop batteries and building your own tesla style battery pack. You can get everything including the battery management system to do it but by the time you gather it all up you have to have a free source of laptop batteries or used tesla cells are cheaper from cars and the powerwall is probably cheaper once you count the inverter cost.
Plus even with a background as a controls engineer I donât really think my insurance company would be to happy if they found out I had a home made battery system. I think that would be sorry we donât cover your house anymore.
Maybe it is the environmentalists in me but I am leaning towards the aquion batteries. I think the issue with me is even though the Tesla powerwall has an inverter I want to use the schneider hybrid inverter it has genorator support and I have trusted their products in industry for years. One of the better industrial component manufacturer in my experience.
Plus the idea of a salt water battery that doesnât have any chance if thermal runaway sounds nice. I also donât really have alot of faith in lead acid guess it comes from too many years of dealing with dead, all be it abused, car batteries. But it is hard for me to think I should gamble on not abusing them in the winter up here. Aquion claims you can leave them fully discharged and it doesnât hurt them. I just wish Aqion batteries had more of a proven history but that will be true of any new technology. It does feel like a big gamble only on the word of the people selling it.
1 Like
Do some online searching on the solar forums not associated with them. Early reports look good. If they were crap someone would be complaining about them online by now. Here is a mediocre review worst I could find
If these lightly used l16 Iâm using now hadnât fallen into my lap I was going to buy a set of aquions. I agree with the review and think they should drop in price soon ish.
Do you mean Schneider? They bought out xantrexâs home inverter line. Xantrex had bought out trace before that. I have not used them since the buy out so Iâm not sure if the inverters are the same or not At the tIâm their interface was difficult to navigate but they had good reliability. At the time of the buy out xantrex was hurting. Outback and magnum are the dominant players now. Both are excellent.
3 Likes
Or you could make a heckuva sized flow cell.
This guys use iron and chlorine and water for theirs:
The membrane that goes in between is the expensive part, otherwise it is essentially a circulating pump for each tank. There are other chemistries as well. this one looks like it is about the safest.
2 Likes
Thanks Yes I ment schneider. Somehow that auto correct on my phone got the better of me and I am the worldâs worse proof reader. I went back and fixed it.
They use the same exantrex charge controller it even saids exantrex. But I think the inverter is a new product. I have used alot of schneider components in the past they own the old Square D products too that was about a decade ago now I think. You have to get a separate interface box with their products and a battery monitor as well so 4 components. I think I would probably get the remote web interface com box it looks to have the easiest interface to use.
I had seen that review it confirms what aquion saids on their website that you need extra batteries to handle bigger current loads. I am looking at 15kW a day power ussage with 2 days storage so it would be a 30kW battery pack 14 of their 48vdc batteries. That is big enough that the total number of batteries offsets the slower charge and discharge rates. I do also wonder if they will have a price drop to catch up with the powerwall 2. But I think they will outlast the powerwall 2. Both have very similar ratings but I have read a few reviews questioning the Tesla cycle life for the powerwall 1. The issue is Tesla seems to quote a deeper depth of discharge then the Panasonic documents would support for the 18650. I sort of have this underlying feeling that they are all betting you wonât notice because battery life depends so much on how you use them and also the end of life is actually 80% of original rated value. At 80% I surely would keep using them. The one thing I did like about the aquion that wasnât really true about the others is the scalability of them. They claim you can add batteries at any time because they have a very slow degradation so there isnât an issue mixing new and old batteries. That sounds really good to me. If the cost dropped alot I could see myself adding more batteries to cover a larger load. Maybe switching over some of my gas appliances in the future.
3 Likes
Ha! Ha! Anyone reading this exchange feeling info drowned, floundering . . . .
I do a lot of PBS recording on our new satellite DVR.
I was setting up to record an explains tech âbatteriesâ program for later viewing. My wife saw the beginning, and insisted we watch it live. That is unusual.
Goâs over all of these battery types, whys, wherefores, proâs and cons in just a very lively hour.
Very good. Excellent even.
One lithium designer had beat the use hazards by solid plastic electrolyte building. Could hammer, crush, slice and dice his flat cells without catastrophic failures. Downsides? Unproven reliability. Highly reactive Lithium metal still has to be refined, safely transported, to the manufacturing center. End of life limited recycling possibilities?
All lead-acid strong points.
Another designer approached this from the stand point as only using from the most common found elements existing in the earthâs crust. Narrowed it down to just 12 elements he would use⊠As them having the safest raw materials sourcing/refining. And end of usable life recycling/disposal. Potentially the actual lowest costs then for the whole end to end usage. The Salt water battery.
A PBS âNOVAâ program edition broadcast beginning of February 2017. âSearching for the Super Batteryâ
Wife could relate as a portable cell phone user in her go-to-homes nursing works since the early shoulder-bag cell phones - nickle cadmium. Then a Motorola original digital flip phone with the one pound/one hour batts - nickle metal hydride. To now her last two Apple phoneâs with lithium ionâs.
J-I-C Steve Unruh
2 Likes
Aquionâs sodium-ion battery is designed for multi-hour applications. According to the company, its batteries can deliver a round-trip efficiency of 85 percent and perform 5,000 cycles. The companyâs cost target is $250 per kilowatt-hour, with the goal of getting to $160 per kilowatt-hour when its manufacturing facility in Pennsylvania is at scale.
If they can reach those targets that would be amazing. Right now they are at $543 per kWh.
1 Like
Steve here is a link to the nova show online.
Thanks Steve I just finished watching that I liked the aquion factory part and the lithium plastic battery. Also the flywheel is pretty cool. Seems like there should be a size of the flywheel that would work at a home scale. I have always wondered about that simply because basically a spinning mass will last as long as the bearing lastâŠ
2 Likes
I thought of you when I saw these TI reference designs. One is for an inverter, the other is for a microinverter.
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/applications/industrial/grid-infrastructure/reference-designs.page
1 Like
Well, the turkeys are getting bigger and donât want to go into the coop at night anymore. I think I may run a few strands of wire across the top to keep this from happening.
10 Likes
for a very small system 120 volt I would suggest Xantrex . Which worked well for me until I let my batteries dry out .
2 Likes
Shit, that is what it is.
Normal I donât clean our panels but we had the same problem this year. Lot of goose flying over. Most of the time rain cleans everything. Canât notice a difference after cleaning.
4 Likes
Found this old solar thread not to clutter others.
Not to scare anyone on this side of the pond off from solar, I just wanted to mention I donât recognize any of the downsides @SteveUnruh mentioned about grid tied solar, except the fact that when the grid is down - the grid is down. It happens a couple hours a year in avarage around here.
- A second meter is not needed. No extra costs involved for the solar hookup.
- I automaticly use my own electricity as long as the sun shines. Iâve cut my âstore boughtâ consumption in half for the past year.
- I addition, Iâve sold 6 times that amount to the power company of my choice. They pay me hourly market price + 10 Swedish cents (öre) for every kWh I deliver.
Rules and regulations may vary, but from what I understand there are similar conditions, at least within EU states.
Unless weâre willing to go off-grid, which very few of us are, weâre still stuck with hookup fees and such. In my opinion we can just as well utilize the grid to our advantage, since weâre already paying for it. Also, no need for the extra cost and hassle with batteries.
Yes, if the grid fails long term I will have to bite the bullet, but I lack motivation to adapt to something that may not happen during my lifetime. Having the electricity needs covered with no input fom my side, frees up time to play with vehicle gasification, which to me is s lot more fun and gives more bang for the buck.
Iâm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I just wanted to share the information, based on my own personal experience.
11 Likes
Thatâs impressive. Many of the utilities here pay significantly less for power than they charge for it. Around here the utilities are trying to get out of paying for it at allâŠ
For me, being off-grid is about being independent, not just a technical hurdle. I could be âoff-gridâ today if I bought gasoline for my generator. Whatâs the point? I still need that fuel pipeline to keep flowing. Iâm just substituting one input for another. From that point of view, I feel like selling solar power and buying it back later is just a transaction, and leaves you reliant on the grid to keep you going. No problem if that works for you - itâs just not my motivation.
Saving money was definitely on my list of motivations when I got into woodgas. I donât think I did save any money⊠the more I got into it, the more tools and parts I found myself buying. What an awesome skillset though⊠Now I find myself motivated by trying to provide a lifestyle for my family, and teaching them to be self-reliant. Being off-grid is only one facet of that journey.
15 Likes
In that journey less is more. If you can live with less, you get more free time to live in returnâ:smiley:
. Kristian has traveled far on that point. I tried the last ten years but I am to much of a pizza boy. And woodgas is real high fruit for me. Nevertheless something I want to finish, if God wants me to.
Life is balance act. Do the things you want and have to. Most important is to enjoy your time here.
PV got me hooked up. You put some effort and money in it and harvest the energy forever. Without plowing watering etc. For me a nobrainer. And in a few years we will have the same system as JO, in the meantime I fill my wallet. And still, when we cant use the grid as a battery, ROI is ok. Anyways, my Victrons will keep our grid and PV alive incase⊠and no need to buy gasoline for my generator. Just for fun I want the ability to run it on woodgas is ever SHTF. If that never happens I just had a good time.
But still high fruit, dont understand why. Beautiful community here and everything I try is a failure. Some dayâŠ. In the mean time just changed motors of the plasma, soldering electronics, etc , first time right. Running almost 30 m/min, 90 ft/ min with 0,5 G. Why is that possible and woodgas not?
8 Likes
Chris, your motivation makes perfect sense. Knowing what I know now and 30-40 years younger, I would probably go that route myself. Too late now. I donât work fast enough to be able to reach the goal even if I hurry. Iâll settle for the low hanging fruits. Priority will be adding to grandkidâs curriculum.
9 Likes
Delivery service? Where do I order? 
7 Likes
I dont care, as long as it is a BIG pizza. And fast, i dont want to wait. 
or fat.
If I ever succeed in woodgas you are the first to serve.
6 Likes