Toyota: 22r carb, or 22re go?

Hi Marcus,
If you can get more compression that would be good. I also would suggest doing efi as Wayne mentioned. I’m not sure but I would think you would suck a carb dry when running on woodgas, and then when you would switch back to regular running you would either stall, or have lag time.
I would do the bare bones amount needed to freshen up that motor. If your as vrsed at them as you say you can do more mods later. I can’t stress enough that learning curve that has been mentioned and tar. I know I have had some of that stuff go into mine. Luckily no damage was done.
I have not driven my truck on wood for quite some time. It just sits here. Last winter it got a new fuel pump, and due to the fact that it is in the tank it got a new tank also. The old one was quite nasty inside and wasn’t cleaning up to well. And then as long as I had the tank all off I rebuilt the frame where it upturns behind the cab. You probably know well that is a typical area on the Yoda truck frames that likes to rot out. Mine wasn’t that bad. Just had about a half dollar size hole on each side on the inside of frame. Still I opened the tubular frame up quite a ways and rust treated and welding in reinforcing webbing and then replace the inner frame with all new steel heavier than what original was. Also replaced all the brake lines to the back as they run behind the tank and were close to being junk.
So like I said have not driven it for a while, and should probably tear the gasifier down and check things out. But when I did drive it a couple of key things I noticed is I would go through quite a bit of wood. IDK if it is because these engines are such high RPM engines to get the truck to go down the road at a good clip? Mine is also a 4wheel drive so there is that extra friction, weight, and things moving in the drive train. It’s got some pretty good size tires on it also. Not positive on the tire od, but bigger than stock I am sure as it’s got after market wheels. It’s been stressed many times across this forum as to why Wayne always used the Dakota’s; HP to weight ratio. That could be the other reason for high wood usage. I would try to maintain going down the road a 55mph on fuel that is (help me out guys) about 50% lower BTU value than dino fuel. I have an automatic transmission, so it loves to kick down running on wood because I have my foot big time on the pedal to keep speed up. This is where a manual would probably really help you.
So I guess I’m kinda rambling on. But with the knowledge I have so far with my truck (and mind you I know I have quite more I can learn if I would get back to driving it) I would suggest two wheel drive, with stock tire/wheel size. Fuel injected, with a manual trans. Keep your engine rebuild simple until you learn, and don’t make tar. And perhaps I would also suggest if your not afraid of cutting the bed either move the gas tank, or make a unit that mounts on the drivers side, so you can go through the bed so you can get a better size hopper without sticking way above the cab. I have quite a small hopper if you notice in the video, and it still sticks above the cab and catches wind. I didn’t want to cut a hole in the bed of the truck.
I will be happy to help you out with pictures of what my intake plenum looks like, and how I tied in the MAF.
I guess that’s enough for now: too much :slight_smile:
I’m still considering selling my truck btw. I vacillate back and forth. I tell myself “it just sit’s here and doesn’t get driven”, but then I think “what if the Zombie apocalypse happens”
David S

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I’ve owned Toyota 22re and 22r trucks and motorhomes since 1985. I understand your liking them I currently drive an 88 pickup with 22r. Back when I bought it 10 years ago I had the choice of rebuilding the truck into a 22r or 22re as it needed major repairs on the engine. Since no one had done a 22re conversion at the time - I chose the 22r route. David got his truck running shortly afterward and proved I’d made a mistake.
The Toyota 22re fuel system uses an air vane airflow sensor. It controls fuel flow entirely based on air flow through the sensor. If the sensor has no airflow through it - there is zero fuel delivered from the fuel injectors. No matter if the woodgas system supplies 100% of the engine’s needs or only 10%. The fuel from the injectors will match the airflow that passes through the sensor.
I forget what David figured out on the ignition timing and how that was controlled when the airflow sensor was not sensing flow. I seem to recall that the engine rpm took over.
I was saddened that David sold the system. I would have liked to buy it myself. He had done a nice job creating the conversion.

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Ron, We must have posted about the same time that you didn’t catch that I didn’t sell the system.
Marcus Ron has an interesting point about the MAF controlling the ignition timing. I didn’t know that the sensor position also controlled ignition timing. I have a pull cable on my distributor that I can rotate the distributor like many others do to advance timing, but I honestly have never noticed much if any difference when I did. I am pulling my air through the MAF so maybe it is still controlling my timing no matter what. I just shut found the wires for the injector circuit and the fuel pump and put a toggle switch in them to shut them off that’s how I controlled that part.
Maybe I am never really getting my timing dialed in when running on wood.
Perhaps you know more about how that part of the 22re system works better than I, and can actually help me. :slight_smile:
David

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Hi, I thought more of your statement of the fuel pump running on the cam. All of the cam driven pumps I can think of have the diaphragm pulled by the cam and spring pressure pushes the fuel out. If the fuel does not exit the pump - the actuating finger does not make much contact with the cam. Only when pumping full volume does the finger ride the cam extensively. You could simply place an electric or mechanical valve between the pump and the carburetor to shut off fuel.

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Morning MarcusN.
Most of the reason all are advising you as such is we-all here on the DOW can number off full handfuls of fellows got lost in the make-engine side of it and then never finished follow-though on the make&learn to use woodgasifier side of it.

Easy four cylinder SOHC eight-valve and I have all confidence you WILL follow through. I would not intentionally go so far as make it an interference engine for your first go-around.
Past the big engine book system look at Waynes well detailed out smaller IHC tractor system for later details. In the Premium side Projects section I believe.
Regards
Web-footer Steve Unruh

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Here is a an open-side link to pictures of WayneK’s first shown 4 cylinder engine system:

You can scroll up on that topic and read his trialing and decisions making. One post above this he links directly into his internals step by step building of it.
Scroll down and see him loading work it. Stills pictures and three videos.
And adding in his refinements; and use-proofed modifications.
S.U.

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David

Iv been very lucky so far for living on the coast and of the 30+ 79-95 toyotas I have had, only one had a rusted out frame and boy oh boy was I upset when I found it after owning the truck for a year attempting to restore it. Ultra rare 79 toyota trekker, number 201 produced. Any die hard toyota guys know how crazy rare those things are. I since donated it to a friend who had a short box frame to put it on and his dad is doing all the fiberglass repair to restore it to it’s former glory and title of the “forerunner”. Yes this first build will be a 2wd and under normal circumstances yes these 4bangers get rapped out constantly. Stock makes make peak power and trq at4500-5500 rpm, hence every rebuild I do I slap in a rv cam to give the truck a much more useable power range (1500-4500) I must admit I love the sound of rev limiter through a flow master muffler, but I’m realistic here; I don’t expect the full power of dino on wood in these already very under powered trucks. I know all to well the power that is robbed with lift kits and big tires my last wheeler 83 flatbed on 38x15x16 super swamper tsl lockers front and rear and geared 5.29 in the axles with 4.7 in the rear case stock gears in front case, heavy plate built bumpers rock sliders, and exocage was very heavy and gutless even when I built a hybrid 22/20 stroker motor with big nasty cam it was all it could do to do a weak burnout. Iv since limited my 4wd trucks to 35" tires and street legal and light weight. No problems cutting the bed either :+1:

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Ron

I’m very familiar with the afm, the cursed sensor of the 22re world. Here in the one, they have this nasty tendency for the seal stop the airbox to fail and during water and mud trails suck water in under vacuum blocking the commutator bars and give false throttle response and dead spots under load. It’s infuriating half way down a trail when you lose all throttle control beyond idle ask me how I know. You come around here and open 100 toyota hoods you will see 75 afm spoofed with silicone in attempts to not have it happen again. Pricey bugger to replace from the dealer to at 275$, aftermarket ones are nothing but trouble in my experience. Only sensor more troublesome on the re systems is the tps if it every fails, or it’s sister knock sensor fails and the same symtom occured, poor throttle response, high idle, dead spots during acceleration, or in some extreme cases I have seen the ecu pull timing back when the tps trips up. Had to adjust timing on the trail before to get the truck out of a canyon also very annoying

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Steve

Nobody ever finishes a tinker project, they either get used as is with many “temporary” things that become permanent, or they get stuck in “project purgatory” :joy: i think we all have a project or 2 that"I’ll get around to it" is something you mumble when you move it around the shop after stubbing a toe on it bi-anually. But getting out from under big brothers gas taxing thumb, I’m pretty sure I can get that one done. Besides, something to tinker on while saving gas money for other projects, maybe even a project the wife wants done?? 2 birds stoned with the same joint!

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Not the popular opinion here Marcus, but mine is, for all the reasons you listed in your response to Ron, us that any one of those sensors has you stranded or barely limping along. All fine and dandy if you drive highways and triple A can come and retrieve you. Being an adept mechanic there’s not much on a carbed, distributor timed ignition truck that you couldn’t fix with a few tools.

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Living out here mountainous West Coast TomH. it is really common in hunting seasons, or just the nice summer season drivin’lookin’ can to go from 300 feet to 4000 feet in 90 minutes. Or less. EFI give the Baro sensed change can do this smoothly seamlessly. Carbs cannot. Jetted for the High, then go over-lean for the Low. Jetted for the Low; then over-rich for the High.
The past early mid-80’d to mid 90’s mainline EFI systems are not all that bad.
Mech-a-nicks say, “It’s all just nuts and bolts.” Fabricator guys and welders just say, “It’s all just metals.”
EFI guys just say, “It’s all just Inputs and Outputs.” Especially by the early 90’s ones they have pretty excellent limp-home systems. Well known points to beef up.
Past 1996 and later, later . . . .well . . . keep your snatch tow strap handy. Travel in pairs.
S.U.

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I can claim at 31 years of age, iv never been towed home so far…may have done quite a few self recovery’s, a push start or ten, even one time lost fuel pump and rigged washer fluid squirters to drive it home, spun 2 out of 4 rod bearings and broke one rod and drove it home, several sticks through the radiator drove it home, and more. But never towed :grin: also helps to know what went wrong if it’s worth fixing after or not. When I broke the rod and spun bearings it was an estimated guess it “might” make it home. Had to put it in 4 low to get up the driveway, but had a spare motor in the shop waiting for it. I’ll definitely be relocating the tank to the spare tire mount under the bed with a nice fuel cell to make room for the gassifier to drop through the bed, and hopefully figuring how to “hybrid” so I’ll have a back up fuel source to get home. But I agree carbs are so much simpler to work on and repair in my mind. But Iv done enough years of automotive repair in pretty versed in understanding today’s fuel systems and how they function. But only in stock form of course. I’m interested to know how adding a reostat to the fuel pump relay, essentially being able to induce a controlled voltage drop, will effect the firing of the injectors. Maybe I’m overthinking it as I often do but in my mind dropping voltage to the pump will slow the pump down, but in a standard efi system once proper fuel pressure is hit is when the computer signals the all ok to fire the injectors. In my head the injectors still have normal pressure per the fuel pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail, but potentialy when the low voltage to the pump is dropped and fuel pressure hence drops, computer then won’t fire injectors due to lack of fuel pressure. At least thats how the old Chevy tbi systems ivessed with for many years worked. Those pumps were know to die out and get loud before they took a dump and a simple pressure test would reveal low pressure and conclude a no start diagnosis as a failed fuel pump. Often a few thumps on the fuel tank and pressure would spike back to normal enough to get you home as I did several times in my old Saturn. Is my train of thought right here or am I missing something? Iv never observed fuel pressure on a Toyota as the pumps rarely go bad and with obd1 my scanner won’t hook up and watch live stream data that I can with later obd 2 systems. I know I can watch pressure on the dodge systems, but not sure how it functions

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Hmmm. Best to just stick with figuring your early OBDI Toyotas out.

All of the manufactures at a certain time (late 80’s) had to put in systems for the electrically driven EFI fuel pump to be STOPPED after a crash/roll-over. So’s as not to keep pumping raw fuel onto a maybe fire.
Ford used their steel-ball inertial fuel pump circuit interrupt stiches.
Chrysler/Dodge went with a “safety circuit relay”. Cut power to the relays for the fuel pump, injector drivers, and even the PCM. I think this is how most Toyotas went too.
GM, being GM: did their thing as you’ve found. Later systems very closely monitoring spark energy, voltages and such.

Only after ~2008-11 did the manufactures start putting on fuel pressure sensors.
You early Toytota does not monitor fuel pressure. It Assumes it’s ok.
Most post 1996 OBDII systems then with the short and long term fuel trims % adding will Light-on code out. Even go into Limp-in take away trans gears. Later systems with coil-over plugs ~2003 and later take away cylinders injector fueling and spark firing to force you to limp-in and park it. “To save the catyalitc converter.” Manufacturers were then on the hook for cats lifes up to 8 years/80K. Why they then went to long life platinum and later iridium spark plugs. Keep that cat happy.

And any sigle manufacturers leading up to 1996 OBDII; and then later had to revise their control system every 3-5 years for new regulations mandates.
Gets turkey-tricky. Once they are using self-learning system fully capable of relevancy logic and feeding in a missing sensors “should-be” substitute data value into the general all-use data stream.
And the latest system ~2014-15 are using variable voltage driven fuel pumps. Get rid of the pressure regulator. Compensates for pump motor and pumping elements wear.

Unfortunately on the later OBDII stuff it is a try and see pretty much.
Try and stick with EFI control systems with lots of hot-rodding/off-roading usages.
Ha! Ha! And that’d be your Toyota pickups alright.
Steve unruh

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Ford inertia switches…(knashing of teeth) worst engineered switch to EVER be installed in a factory off road truck! Set to trip at 35 degrees in any axis. Bout got me and my brother killed several times hunting in his ext ranger. Worst thing to happen during steep ascent on a logging road is for ecm to shut off fuel supply, killing the truck, losing power brakes and power steering, and go sliding down a mountain side backwards at high rate of speed. I physically shake with anger to think about that cursed switch. One of many reasons I swore off the Ford trucks I grew up on. Toyotas? No fuel cut! Roll it over on it’s lid, dump clutch and hope a tire touches the ground, rip it into a cyclone and back on it’s wheels! Ya it smokes a bit when the oil rushes to the head, but your back on the trail and having fun and all the boys got to watch a wild display of wide open throttle goodness. I’d be lying to say I didn’t love the 22re motor, tough as nails as long as you keep it cool and don’t pop the head gasket.

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Hard to teach a dinosaur new tricks Steve. No argument with what you have said but any vehicle totally dependent on 50 psi of fuel pressure with injectors dependent on an ECU and relays doesn’t make me all warm and fuzzy when I start adding up the things that could go wrong. However I once made it home in a 79 Bronco with a gas can ratchet strapped to the hood feeding a carb. The marvels of gravity. As far as dual fuel goes, a set up for a propane carb allows switching back and forth from petrol to propane with a couple of solenoid switches. No reason the same couldn’t be done with wood gas. The other reason ECU control is considered superior is the ability to control timing. I’m not saying I’m every going back to points unless China were to detonate an EMP warhead over the country but about 500 bucks puts you in an MSD ignition with cab controlled timing. I’ll shut up about the whole thing now.

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Tom

Iv set up several toyotas over the years with mad, never a fuel injected one though. Might be worth looking into for in cab timing control. I know it can easily be done with a cable ran in the cab. I did momentarily debate in my mind using the stock 22r, switching to a 2 barrel offenhauser intake and dumping on Holly sniper efi. Talk about the expensive route, but it is a very reliable self learning live date efi system in a very small package. Food for thought on a later build maybe. I know this won’t be my only foray into the woodgas world for sure!

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Well I just wrote and then erased three paragraphs of stuff about prepping for “sold-fears”. Sheee. Take that fears right down to just a hammer and a blade saw. Pounding out using woodcharcoal.
My brand spanking new thin sheet SS capable inverter MIG welder? EMF O.K.? With it’s metal housing shielding. Or EMF, Nay? Just because it’s Italian “electronic”. Sheee.
Tom just how long could a fellow milk out his oxyacetylene torch set, eh? Not long enough.

I am never going back to ignition points. Have spare coil-pacs for all of my critical small engines now. I have one or the other heat-use die about once in every three years. STILL better than twice a year points fritzing. After becoming arm sore cranking.
I did have an MSD system way back in 1978-82. Piggy backed them onto Hall chopper wheel; Inductor(Motorola) and Perlux optical retrofit points-replacement systems.
The later MSD systems with on-the fly timing control, even better.
I put up once here on the DOW an info-link to retrofitting 70/80’s Ford-GM-Chrysler ignition amplifier modules to flywheel Hall triggered ignition systems. O.K for 1 to 12 cylinders. Internet searchable. Find. Download. Hard-copy print-out. Then piggy back the new MSD onto that.

Now here is done-it, tried-it information here on the DOW.
Wood gasifing gasoline carburetor system IS NOT JUST LIKE propane or methane gas fueled engines systems!!! Propane and methane are pressure delivered to their mixers.
Gasoline carburetors SUCK their liquid fuel. Woodgas system really have to suck their fuel gases. Horrible incompatibilities between these two different sucking actions systems.
Magnifying Glass topics search this up here on the DOW. I refuse to repeat hundreds of posts on this. Woodgas below thru carb. Woodgas thru the carb. Two pedal systems Gahhkk.
EFI is just so damn easy to woodgas in comparison. Don’t just believe me. Read the Done-it. Driving-it, Projects here.

The easiest trick of it is use the later late 80’s thru early 90’s EFI, OBDI factory systems. With still ignition distributors.

Coil-pac, and coil-over-plug systems, (distributor-less) are being done. But expect a whole different level of commitment. Expects set-backs. Course reversals. And just will not work disappointments.
Just like the the four valve, cam twister engines will get wood gassed now too. No choice in many areas now.
Doesn’t have to be you doing these.
Someone else. Watch. Read and see.
Regards
Steve Unruh

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Here you go:
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm#dynatekignition
Scroll down for the the Brain Miller retrofits using GM, Chrysler and Ford ignition modules.
Open up the links for the wiring diagrams.
S.U.

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SteveU. I sit at this desk a couple hours a day looking at old entries on this site. There is just too much to uncover without some hints. Oxy- acetylene? Don’t remember what that is. Have’n’t refilled my tanks or bought shielding gas since I burned down my shop just because I’m practicing in my deluded mental state for a future that these things won’t be available and I can’t produce them myself. Going on five years and I have built a lot of stuff using nothing but cut off disks. Do I miss the other stuff. absolutely but I can do just fine without it. Got a lot of cutting disks, welding rod, Flux core wire. Different strokes.

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As long as I got my solar battery bank,a set of jumper cables and some 7013, pretty sure I can make anything stick together :joy: but for this build I have full access to the heavy duty diesel shop I work in tooling is no problem. Currently the materials are the problem I’m finding the fire tube is a spendy piece of material if you buy it new, and hard to find at the scrap yards.
Wayne

In the book I think I saw you mention you would try steel banding material for heat syncs, why such a thin material?

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