Woodgas Fuel Characteristics Inside an Internal Combustion Piston Engine

General Discussion
#81

O.K. Vega’s acid etched silicon exposed cylinder bore. OK, kinna’ sorta’ in air-cooled engines application but stupid in a water cooled can coolants leak engines GM AND Mercedes! Vegas were fixed by boring and sleeve inserting. At your own added costs!
How you fix the later 307’s GM V-8 bore wearers after they decided to remove the nickel? molybium? they’d used for decades in their small blocks castings? And how do fix any of the many, many 90’s Quad-four’s afflicted onto my GM loving family and friends? None of these were hung-over labor problems. And the cold sloppy piston slappers? Labor sloppiness? Or too short of piston skirts emissions engineered tried? I’ll stop GM trashing; they all have dirty laundry.
Here: search up this guys’ “Rare Classic Cars” channel for American brands classic worst engines /transmissions listings. He’s good. Real good. I only watched the Chrysler stuff where I could for sure confirm. The 2.7L DOHC V-6’s factory base engines were the rip-off worst, I agree with him. I made no friends saying this at the Chrysler Tech Center training classes. Those Instructors were Daimler-Chrysler salaried, vested.

More relevant to the DOW, now today, are the fellows joining asking about their owned engines made in the last, say 15 years. Here is for that:

Now more directly on topic Sir Harry Ricardo referred to in the first 20 minutes; lots and lots of late 60’s American factory high compression cars engines compared to their sister, standard compression engines in the first 30 minutes. Interested then hang in there for the very detailed fuel octane considerations by an decades operating engineer expert in hard worked supercharged and turbocharged IC engines:

And this one DOES CC Translate!
And you get to see Steve Unruh called out wrong, wrong, wrong.
Observe wrong (remember wrong) then conclude wrong. Leading to Believing wrong. Leading to making wrong Decisions. Can get really, really $$$$$ expensive.
S.U.

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#82

Were the Cosworth Vegas sleeved?

#83

Cody, not according to this article:

Ha! And for the record late 60’s, early 70’s I was mostly an old Volvo and and AMC Rambler American/Classic guy. For thier earliest factory installed safety, brake dual chamber master cylinders. I’d had three stomping to the floors - NOTHING - hairy scary full brake failures by then in my previous old stuff. At least with dual master cylinders you had something.
Those others are not actually emergency brakes! They are PARKING brakes. (unless hand lever types used for cornering ass end skids steering) Stomping down on a ratcheting stetting parking foot brake will spin you out. Unless . . . you are left-handed very, very good.
S.U.

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#84

And now we have the truth out of the man. Wasn’t that easy? No more fingernail pulling, no more therapy sessions for inclusivity and sensitivity training. No more lying to yourself Tom. You are prejudice and we like the way you are prejudice.

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#85

Only reason why I asked was my dad had a Cosworth Vega. He would highway speed haul his boat with it, said it looked like a Minnow being chased by a Shark.

Every car story from my dad just makes me hoard even harder. Dad couldn’t keep anything always trading, I can’t get rid of anything.

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#86

That vega reminds me of my high school auto shop teacher, he put v8 in his vega back in 1977. Old but cool projects.

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#87

While we are considering ( occasionally) how to best wood gas an engine we should not neglect the rest of the drive train. What lets a semi haul tremendous loads? Gears and more gears. On the old school, three or four speed trans every shift from say 5000 RPM of acceleration dropped you back 1500 Rpm or so and you had to recover that loss to get back into a better power band. More peddle pressure and less fuel economy. It was a sacrifice you made to be able to get a certain amount of speed. Add gears and that drop was less and you more quickly got back into optimum power. Wood gas fueled vehicles struggle to get into that power band that makes highway speed possible. Not wanting to argue with SteveU that it’s horsepower that gets you up a hill, horse power is a measured from torque and RPM.

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#88

Thats why i want too try out a v8 dakota with wood gas, plenty of extra power, too make up for the 40 percent power loss from vaper wood gas. A v8 s10 would be more power too wieght ratial , but then you are limited on space too get all the pluming pipes straiter too the motor. And with the extra power of the v8 dakota, you can run low rpms ,running around empty,and save on wood useage.

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#89

Ahhh. Remember TomH, we are not actually allowed to argue on the DOW. And debating strongly discouraged because that leads to hurt feelings and arguing.
But man, oh man . . . . . . . . (you are so wrong about gut level powering with woodgas).

Woodgas is a torque making engine fuel.
Those big 'ol 60’s V-8’s you love so much were really torque making monsters. Your own admitted dyno seen Chrysler 440, broad band torque whupping an early Chrysler built-up hemi.
Factory dialed in for best widest band of torque they, like the big inline sixes did not need all of the gears splitting. Only ever needing four speeds. Only actually needed for paved roads work a three speeds.

So as a torque making fuel; just like the best of diesel use practices; in an IC piston engines think 4000 rpm MAX at high end shifting points dropping you back that 1500 rpm, fat and happy into the mid-range of the torque curve.
This is what all of the real world current using loaded engine proofs say from Kristijan; J.O.'s; Joni’s, Mike LeRosa’s, DonM’s; all of the Ranger four cylinder guys, up through the V-8 guys; into WayneK’s V-10 says.
Woodgas is the wide, wide fat torque range making fuel. You do not need all of the extra gears.

The mistake is using it in a narrow torque, or horsepower band engine. And that IS those truck engines you referred to. Narrow band. Actually RPM limited.
Especially counter productive is to try and force woodgas to be your ticket in a needs to be RPM engine regardless of it number of cylinder or displacement.

Good point that the whole packaging around the engine will dominate over and above the actual woodgas-into, and within the engines concerns.
What has many times over now in that past 12-15 years proven out (and Marcus re-proves) is woodgas is best used in a factory set up into the individual cylinder port fuel fuel injected engines. For many, many reason as explained out across the whole of the DOW. As first proved out by Mike Lerosa, Wayne Keith, Dutch John and some others as the earliest in this 21st Century. And now by many more. Jacob’s 2021, USA run across the whole country, east to west and back. Dodge Magnum enabled.
And what actual vehicles are port injected vehicles wrapped up in??
For made-here, and imported into The USofA and Canada it’s the late 1980’s vehicles. The early 1990’s vehicles up to 1996. Past 1996; progressively deeper, and deeper into the Gov’mints mandated self-checking, continually rechecking systems, it becomes a real crap shoot. Really study that problem. And load up those shooters dice like I’ve personally tried to.
The most recently acquired 2017 GMC boxvan.
A year before that bought 2005 Toyota four cylinder Camery.
The wife’s 2014 Ford Edge? No bloody way. It’s sysnc’ed, linking; and searches out cell towers.
Her previous 2007 Hyundia V-6 Tucson? Doubly, no bloody way. Too many camshafts. Too many camshaft chains.

Electrical power generating; direct engine water pumping; favor 1500-1800 rpm power band engines. Use 2200-2800 rpm engines application on wood and char gas also as a strong preference. The larger variable speed inverter generators!
3000 rpm engines. . . only if you really have to. 3600 rpm engines? Expect lower power equivalency. 3600 rpm higher wear, made higher yet. Use-up, throwaway engines. Nearly all made in China now. How smart is it to addict to that, eh.

The usages prove these facts.
True living is not how much noise and smokes a fellow can make. Or how big of tire tracks he can make.
You wanna’ really self-sustain? That means being left alone, to do what is best for you, and yours. You do quietly then, without raising ruckuses.
Not just my opinion. Histories.
Steve unruh

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#90

Hey wait a minute. You can’t talk to me like that. I’m sensitive. I may have to go out in the yard and sit under the granddaughter feeling tree until I’m emotionally stabilized.
Ok. Feeling better. Just goes to show how much I actually don’t know about a real world wood gas powered and driving vehicle. Does make me feel better about the mocking I have received in this life for championing my old powerglides or the Turbo 350 in my mud truck previous existences. Proves you can teach an old dog new tricks. I’d thank you but it would make me seem weak. Bad for my macho image.

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#91

So Some thoughts of mine since I am late to this.

I have talked up a small head like the 18cc and flat top piston in the GX200
From previous experience this combination works well with a tight quench and you can reduce your timing requirements ( fact tested not theory gasoline )
The smaller chambers and better mixing promote a faster burn and this relevant to wood gas.

Rod ratio conventional theory.
Low compression engines are not taking advantage of the all the heat generated in combustion to expand the gasses and create work from heat and pressure.
At 90 deg after top dead centre a high compression engine has turned more heat into work and the cylinder is cooler than a low compression engine ( wrap your head around that. They are cooking the lubricant off the cylinder walls and loading the piston up when and where it hurts the most )
Flame speed is important.
As the video stated there is that longer dwell time at top dead centre in the long rod engine for the fuel to burn before the piston starts to accelerate.
We want as much of that fuel burned as possible because we do not want to expand faster than we burn or we just transfer that heat to the engine and exhaust rather than expand it to make mechanical work.

SO there is an optimal compression ratio for wood we have sort of defined around 10:1 so that pump losses and stress on parts is tolerable…
There is a optimal RPM range we had identified to prevent the piston outrunning the the combustion process.

There are variables not clearly defined for wood that have to played with like timing and mixture control, hydrogen to Co content if we can adjust them…

There is rod length…
We have no control over this.
So we need to look for the right engines and adjust what we can.
Compression ratios that are higher and RPM ranges that match what works.

When coming back to the clones I think its best to try and keep the RPM range around 2500 at the lowest to get as much oil moving as possible and deal with the high side loading of the pistons.
I think its best to aim for that higher compression ration and keep as much timing as you can to get as much fuel burned quickly before the piston speed is too high.

How fast can we go efficiently before things drop off?
Testing required to know for sure but we have to get engine for power generation up to 3600 rpm.
I know but 25 btdc seems to be a good low end number to start with on a small block clone for a few reasons.
You can start it easily and it will burn gasoline as required.
25 deg and a 10:1 compression ratio will pull start and burn gasoline and perform well.
I have found it will easily burn Chargas with steam cracking with no problems.

Your EG temperatures drop even if your timing is too advanced and you don’t hear the knock…

Koen has put lots of hours on small block clones with some tinkering on Charcoal with stock timing and compression and with some modifications and we should go back and look at some of his data to see what sort of conclusions we can come to from it.

I have this Wisconsin I talk about fairly often with its lovely long rod ideal for low speeds and slow burning fuel.
That’s something I am looking forward to testing against the Onan, the K series Kohler and and clones this summer to see what effects chargas has and if there really is anything of value in one engine over another.

I have a selection of over and under square engines with long and short rods now and all in stock form they have compression ratios between 5:1 and 7:1 stock.

It should produce some interesting results

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#92

Oh damn, man.
TomH, I so, so sorry. I edited out the line about the real torquie early 60’s engines only really needing 2-speed Powerglides.
I’d thought I was getting too long and wordy. Why’d I ever edited that line out. Reversion. Yeah. Yeah. The old me before all of the sensitivity training classes. I will punish myself by watch all of the Portland OR nightly news channels. No more shirking.
Remember I am far-Left Coast here. We immerse in inclusiveness to all and are proud of our sensitivity. Kid’es school has their fence message: Be Kind.

Hey Wallace. Welcome to the party.
I read you are getting it.

Recall when Briggs and Stratton decided to stop using horsepower ratings and using their own published torque ratings instead as more valid?
I am sure we all will change over to better idea side terminal battery’s any day soon too. The “American” innovation.
And just as soon as the last ol’ farts, spouts out our lasts, recalcitrant American will finally convert to full metric too.

Ha! 2400 years of humor still endures.
S.U.

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#93

We always talk about the right engines.
I wonder if this was the right engine…
A GM industrial V6 Its a slight over bore with very thick rings for good sealing and over built.
Designed to pull at low RPM, produce modest HP and be reliable.
Fuel economy was not really factored in so compression is low under 8:1 but this was done to let you burn cheap low octane fuel.

Turbo charged and burning woodgas this might be about optimized !

I do know these were used as stationary natural gas engine and very very reliable.

Long blocks, long rods again and this is a slow engine, more food for thought.

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#94

Ben Petersons old GM V-6 dump truck he woodgasses up and down his county road just to be able to say woodgas-can-deliver. 2008
Truck was too old, in bad shape, to be worth being brought up to state safety inspection. Had to be commercial carrier. His place was not farm registered.
S.U.

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#95

It ticks all the right boxes from a reliability standpoint.
Fits in a truck…

I wish I could physically sit these two rods together for a comparison.
it would appear the Onan rod is longer based on the diameters of the rod journals
These are comparable HP and RPM ratings but the Onan is designed to run at lower RPMS
Both designs are challenged by the need to be short compact cubes.
B range rods ( BGE ect B43 tractor )
82*66mm bore/stroke

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Honda GX340
88*64 bore/stroke

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j range Onan rod
An engine that was not height challenged.
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#96

O.K. here is something I’ve defiantly wanted to try for better woodgas heat conversion within the engines cylinder: ceramic coating the pistons top:

I am not from personal use endorsing any particular brand. This is just the shortest article I could find.
Gasifier builder John Blunt once used one of these ceramic coating on the insides of his hearth exposure metals. Said it did seem to work fine in the areas that heated enough for hot enough fusing bonding.

As I recall Mr Elsbett’s two piece pistons were upper cast iron, lowers aluminum. Very specialized.
Aluminum top coated would seem to be the good enough heat energy conserver.
Then a fellow wonders . . . why not also coat the exposed underside of the cylinder heads combustion chamber too, eh.

Small engines like Wallace develops around you can try many things.

I do know this well now . . . . the last three in-house woodstoves (to keep her green eyes batting) wife has insisted on pretty fired porcelain colored enamel.
The retirement house has a plain black painted metal hearth mounted stove. Much, much less wood I’m using to heat a larger space. There the reverse. You want the heat transfer out. Not conserved to be flue gases swept out.
Steve unruh

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#97

Steve, certain diesel engines have a special metal upper that is really hard, and at the same time it works against metal leaching and heat retention, also 4 valves in the head reduce heat transfer and improve efficiency. I am interested in a VW 1.8 turbo engine with 5 valves in the head and an electric turbine for low revs, …

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#98

Hi Tone, that will be an interesting project indeed.

In Advanced Engine Performance Technical Classes (for smoothness and least emissions restoring) they taught us the real reason for going from two to multiple valves was to increase the more the hottest in combustion chamber surface areas. Valve heads run hotter making for less unburned hydrocarbons exhaust emitted.

Look at Illustration 4B down in this article. Temperatures are in Fahrenheit, not C.
https://www.autoblueprint.com/Articles/ValveStemSeal/Technical_Article_Valve_Seal_Repalcement.html
In a diesel fueled engine with it’s many carbons locked molecules all hot help is needed.
Also in this article are picked very badly oil crusts coking up back side of head valves. HOT valves helps to burn these off.
Ha! Ha I’ve in vehicle replaced valve stem seals on early two valves VW’s. Even dropped valved down into the cylinder and has to fish up back into the guide. Multi-valve engines it became work faster removing and reinstalling the cylinder heads.

And some of the Japanese engine manufactures Honda? Mazda? use individual intake valves timing and progressive opening to create air mixing tumbling.

Yes I know. You are just proposing adapting over what is already manufactured pre-existing.
Very practical.
Amazing though once a fellow breaks away from treating the IC engine as just a simple pump, but a dynamic heat engine what wonders can be seen.
Steve Unruh

Edit add: search up Engine Valves Temperature Gradients

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#99

I went through the GMC V-6 phase. The 305cid in pickups was an absolute bear to set the points with. Then there came the 401 and 468(?) In the medium duty trucks. I didn’t see anything really wrong with them other than they didn’t have parts available. Then along came a IH 392 v-8 attached to a 5 over 4 double stick, in a logging truck and I traded all the GMC v-6es I had (7) for the IH. I am glad too. The IH has every bit of it industrial grade gasoline engine. I can run that log loader for hours with that engine and it’s a steady 30psi oil pressure, 180f water temp. It convinced me to buy a power stroke, when I saw the same oil cooler on it, as the 392.

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#100

The tug I was running had ceramic pistons installed after the last rebuild. Twin turbo 12v71 and it usually ran 1825 rpm fully loaded towing for hours at a time. Not sure how much they were extra and if they made a big difference. Usually 10 000 hours between rebuilds.

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