You know Steve a simple “No don’t do it just spark convert instead” would probably been a shorter reply… (Know that I’m kidding, sarcasm doesn’t type out well; I try to pay extra attention when you get wound up because I know its important…)
Hi DavidB
Yeah got so wound up I searched out to get a decent dial-up line, invested the three hours and watched and listened to most all of Jamestanwh’s/Trillion Gasifiers 13 YouTube videos. I’d just peek through a Quicktime no audio thumbnail before. Love to hear engines woodgas running!!
So here’s Steve Unruh eating a bit of crow to you PatrickJ and Mr Jamestanwh.
I saw and listened to an unspecified 4 cylinder Chinese diesel duel fuel load run; two different turbocharged, CAV rotory pump Lister Petter HL4 cylinder pump driving diesels dual fuel run; and then a single cylinder Yamnar TS230C 2200 RPM jack shaft hum away 1500 hertz generating on dual fuel.
This Jamesstanwh fellow to me shows a reasonable developement curve on his gasifier sysem evolution and engine running on first 4 cylinder gas(oline) engines starting four years ago. Now different diesel’s for the last two.
His gasifier systems sizing, componet locations are all in tune for a high ash palm nut and mixed wood chip fueled system. Everything reasonable as downdraft throatless with a manual active rotating grate, ect.
Not my fuels types and I certainly could not get away with his water gas washing/cooling system here in the PNW clean-'n-green. Get myself first on a local TV exposé then into pee-looter jail. Canadian, upper US midwest and most northen Euro guys would freeze up unusable with his water/evaporative dependent based systems. Not the point. Seeing the steam rising off his cooling troughs,tanks and barrels was part of what convinced me he was for real. He is Equatorial living designing for Equatorial conditions. That is much more of the World than our cold northern now anal obsessive nanny states.
Frankly I think most of our 1st world “solutions” will prove to be widespresd UN-affordable to put into general use for the majorty in the world. CT scans for ALL??
Nice to see someone actually designing/building humans usable practical for the rest of the worlds common men to be able to use.
Ha! Ha! Since this tread started with a very sophisticated high compression fully electronically controled 1st world turbo-diesel desire then I do think this Singapore fellow is overloading his deisel expereince capabilties in saying these: " . . . any conventional diesel", “No engine modifications required”, and “No derating on the engine output”
Different “any diesel” world completly on operator abused heavily ran truck, high speed vehicle and 3600 RPM screamer diesels.
Anyhow PatrickJ go ahead and get one of his systems. You could mixed chip wood fuel it with mill scraps. You need the power - have the fuel stocks. Take a one system affordable chance. You have the working deisels to try it out on.
Only once it proves to you would I commit to suppling a far off grid Farmer needing to do a lot of pump circle crop irrigating.
We say here, “Never bet the Whole Farm!”
Thanks for prodding me to get to hear that Yanmar TS woodgas run.
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve
Thanks you for your input on the trillion gasification systems.
I want the get a WK gasifier up and running to get some experience before I tell a friend to buy a trillion gasifier. I can buy American V8,s here for a reasonable price and rebuild them with high comp pistons to pump water to his crop circles (center pivots) then I will try destroy a Diesel engine with wood gas.
I can buy 3 V8,s for the price of one Diesel engine.
In one of the comments I found a link to a Scandinavian power company that supply power to the national grid , using wood gas engines. I have searched high and low to find that link again , you would not happen to have it ?
Steve you are one of the old timers on this site that makes it so great, you do ramble on some times but there is always a lot of important information in what you say that we can use.
Thank you
Patrick
Not Scandinavian but will link you to two actually woodgas electrical power projects that did get off the ground enough to actually be able to power out to a national grid. You can back into the oganization address and search other monitored countries efforts.
Switzerland, Austria, Estonia and India seem to be the most active in the last 10 years.
Common patterns? No domestic sources of politically available natural gas fields (Netherlands, Russia, ect). No available pools of oil (USA, Canada, UK, Norway, ect). NO deep sea ports to be drowned in manipulated world priced and avalible liquid petroleums, LNG and fossil coals (Japan, China, Korea, Tawain and others. Not directly crossed by cheap bulk trans-continetal pipelines (Poland, Ukraine and others). No huge investments in coal or Nuclear power plants (USA, Belgium, France, China and others). Maxed out Hydro resources now.
Three if these four listed countries have trees, can renewably grow trees and the willingness to at least try and be energy self-sufficient.
I could send you hunderds of links to shutdown now failed projects in the US, Canada and around the world. So-o-o-o very easy to kill these projects off very discreetly, indirectly. Initially fund then - dry up the funding - focus then on “techincal problems”, or, “world energy market cost changes” for the failure. Put cake-eater, tree hugging Eco-Feekin-Greens onto them: USofA - PNW, Germany. Insist that the shaft power be “most efficiently” only “modern gas terbine” genrated: East Coast US projects like the Connecticut Biomass Project misery. Untimate efficiency Geek killed? Powerworkers Unions killed? No matter dead now.
Why I only now support just gitter-done up-by-the-bootsraps woodgas projects now with my personal time and energy. No confusion then on for who it is being done for. No behind the scenes purse strings manipulating for a failure. As soon as I smell beholding grant moneys or rebate tax incentives goals I am gone, gone, gone. Woodgas can actually stand on its own energy balance sheets just fine thank you. Ain’t energy/balances wise broken at all. Needs NO Help.
Just Does NOT need to manipulated and over pot stirred into failures.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve
I don’t think it was IEA .
On the site they showed big Diesel engines they had converted to run on gas .
Unfortunately I have been reading so many threads I’m completely confused as to where I saw it !
These failed or shut down plants are they for sale ?
Thanks
Patrick
Hey PatrickJ
You’d asked for links to power companies that had supplied national grid power using woodgasses fuel engines . . . the two Swiss operations were the only I’d ever read about. I did once read the the whole IAE “Swedish” and “Finnish” country reports and only read of deep pocketed sponsered research and chemical companies projects listed all pixilated with gas and steam turbines for shaft power in combined heat and power cycles. Interesting to read they do no better with “air” fed gasifiers then the DIY efforts. Never bothered to read the Danish and Norwegian Scandinavian country reports. Have at it man, they are in their files there.
I just did a Google 10+ pages back search of “Biomass Duel Fuel Diesel Engines”. 10 pages of pretty much dog chase it’s own tail of references and reports feeding back onto each other from the just 3-4 actual loaded enxine running expereinces from the early 80’s to 2008. Read three new to me since I last checked. Not a single claimed in service deployed IC engine system with even 500 hours out of a LAB setting with proven field service conditions experience.
Ahhh. Then page seach #11; I found this new to me info:
http://www.guascorpower.com/eng/productos.php
Dresser-Rand Guascor FBLD engines.
An industrial/marine Spanish engine/generator company with even a dealer listed in South Africa.
Now take one of thier smaller engines the “240” series inline 8 cylinder in 24 liters displacement size (1464.57 CID).
As a spark ignited engine for different “lean enrgy” gasious fuels including “Syngas”(woodgas) then set up with a 9.3/1 CR at 1500 RPM = 318-350kW shaft power depending on the actual kJ per cubic meter of the supplied fuel gas.
Same engine now set up as a dedicated compression ignited diesel fueled version (compression not listed) 1500 RPM now up to 525 kW of shaft power.
Now set up as a Duel Fuel diesel-gasious version (diesel pilot fuel ignighted)
now compression up from the spark ignited “syngas” of 9.3/1; but obviously brought down from a straight diesel CR of at least 18/1 to 20/1 to a Duel-Fuel accommodating 14/1 compression. This compression converted engine version fueled on only straight diesel fuel now downrated to 480 kW shaft power. On 30% doesel/70% gasious fuel mix then 360 kW. On 15% diesel/85 gasious fuel mix then down to 288 kW shaft power rating. Very interesting , eh?
Ha! So on the “needs no diesel engine modification” " no power downrating" claims I am taking half of my foot in the mouth crow back. Just half though, as they seem to be willing to certify thier engines to run MODIFIED and DERATED as duel fuel gasious and diesel, pilot fuel ignited, and turbo charged.
So theres a bone for you to chew on.
The electrical load shedding diesel duel fuel woodgas engine overspeed and severe exhaust system backfire reports problems needing work arounds I refered to were real from Sweden and India published reports. And one was from the direct experiences with a memeber here now on two different small diesels. Reading these I sold off the one of two small diesel engines I’d purposely bought to duel fuel woodgas with. Reinvested that money back into a spark ignighted fuel injected gasoline engine/genset to woodgas with instead based on the excellant results the FI engine woodgasing vehicle guys were getting here. All told I am out ~$2000. USD and maybe a year and a half set-back chasing this diesel duelfuel rabbit.
So you all be careful out there.
I still maintain only Some diesel engine types; under Some load conditions like pumping and stable generator loads; for Some poeple only will prove to be feasable.
Variable speeds and loaded auto/marine diesels would be the most troublesome application to try and dual diesel/woodgas fuel.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Thanks Steve
I will try contact them to see what an engine costs here.
Patrick
Hi Steve
In most of the threads I have read, they mentions for wood gas it would be better to have a higher compression ratio.
What is the ideal compression ratio for good gas ?
Then what is the compression ignition pressure of wood gas?
What I’m trying to say is if I did a compression test on an engine what would be the optimum compression be for wood gas before knocking?
Thanks
Patrick
Technically higher is better, right up until the knocking point. 17:1 is supposed to be the limit. Practically I don’t think you’ll see much benefit over 14:1.
Some diesels now are 22:1 or better. That’s way too high and will knock.
Thanks Chris
Is the the effective compression ratio or the bore x stroke ?
Then the cylinder pressure ?
Patrick, that’s the static CR. As determined by the volume at top dead center vs volume at bottom dead center.
With various cam profiles and changing VE / throttle positions you’ll have various dynamic compression rates.
Thanks Chris
So the compression ratio is the theoretical displacement of an engine ie : at TDC it is 1ci at BDC it’s 17 ci ?
So what would be the theoretical pressure at TDC be of an engine with a 17:1 CR ?
(P1 x V1)/ T1 = (P2 x V2)/T2 ?
P1 = 1bar / atmosphere
V1 = 17 ci
T1 = 25c
P2 = ?
V2 = 1ci
T2= ?
P x V = nr x T
Thanks
Patrick
Hey PatrickJ
Math is fine for some things. For this not.
I had a 17/1 compression ratioed engine.
Measured actual compression pressure could be anywhere from 325 to 390 PSI in this engine even with the same camshaft allowed filling rates effects.
Depends on the cranking in RPM it is measured at. This will change the compression produced heat which changes the gasses heat expanded pressures.
Changes with the temperature/density of the air/gas being intaked in affecting the base beginning pressure.
Changes with the temperature of the engine intake, valve, cylinder head, pistion crown and the cylinder liner affecting base gasses temerature/pressure.
Changes with the temeratures of these as that effects the actual cylinder sealing along with ring and cylinder wall oils allowing more or less blowby in cylinder pressure reduction.
And these are all just fairly static effects. YOu could add to your equation.
The actual engine dynamic running cylinder pressures will be effected by RPM/gasses velocities/valve opening and closing effecting the effecttive true cylinder filling percentages.
The effective in cylinder dynamic running pressures will be even MORE effected by the engine loading. Listen to those manual transmissioned Dodge/Cummins diesels rattle with a poor driver! And that is even with a lot of injector timing set back factory proramed in versus auto transmission installs.
So woodgas.
17/1 was Lab Ratted maximum determined under very controlled conditions.
Swede thousands of hours of year around in-field expereinces was make it no higher than 15/1. The did note a1-2 points of difference allowable depending on the diesel engine combustion chambeing effects of a flat piston/in cylinder head Ricardo combustion chambers versus a flat cylinder head face with the combustion chamber now in a bowled out dished piston crown formed.
The Finn Vesa Mikonnen remarks about this same in his book in the diesel engine section. You need to read the “Sweedish papers” section and buy Mr Vesa’s book also for these ran in the real cold Sandinavian world experences. Nice destroyed connector rod pictures from woodgas detonation on loaded turbo running with too high of base CR.
India engine builder Pratash on thier spark converted former diesel engines list a 14/1 CR for thier BIOGAS (methane) intended gen-sets. They reduce this to 13/1 for thier BIOMASS (woodgas) intended gen-sets. They have the engineeers and must warrantee thier systems. So they must be doing this for observed reasons.
GE Jenbacher never lists thier CR’s. Again like the Pratash these are spark ignited. They use tuned in variable speed exhaust driven turbo chargers at the constant engine speeds of 1500RPM and so then you can Tune in your effective dynamic pressures to whatever the fuel will support.
ChrisKY is quite correct.
Start at 14/1 as the most liky to use maybe.
Run a lot under your actual ranges of temperatures, loads and gasifier fuel composition changing conditions first.
Observe.
Maybe you will have to adjust down a point.
Maybe you can adjust up a point.
Bet it will always end up in a mechanically base set range of 13/1 to 15/1 for real world usage.
Ha! Supercomputors and sattelites they still can’t get my weather here right better than an average of 70% of the time. Rain now. Supposed to be sunny. Smooth skined fresh younger comutor models reprorted - 60% accuracy. Old wrinkled shinned gray haired lived/experienced here 30 years perdicted - 80% accuracy. Engines/fuels; weather predicting; billards/pool - decades of expereince matters.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Here Patrick
http://www.prakash-india.com/bio-mass-pdpl.html
This one give you the pictorial of the India suppled gasifier filter train. Long train there to get the equatorial cooling and water washing.
L.H. side bar you can scroll through their different Natural Gas, BioGas and Biomass engines and generating sets.
Sadly since I looked last they have dropped listing their engines compression ratios. My old hand notes confirm the previous listed numbers that I gave.
Enjoy
Steve Unruh
Oh. The Gasification Australia folk once had a YouTube of the 3 cylinder Prakash engine genset gasified fueled on fruit pits up and running. In the alt-enrgy world the India gen heads have poor reputation for quality. Deserved? Donno. S.U.
Hi Steve
Thanks for all the info.
I have an old ford 3 cylinder diesel in the scrap heap.
I had a look at it to try convert it to spark ignition, not impossible just lots of work.
I wanted to do a compression test on it to see what she produces as a starting point.
Then may be skim the pistons to get them in to the ball park of the correct pressure.
So lets take the best for wood gas is 14:1 , what should the compression test be ? Just swing it over with the starter.
Thanks
Patrick
Be an interesting project PatrickJ. I have a working Yamnar 3T72 with a 4000 pound tractor wrapped around it. Mine is IDI with sub pre-chambers that the diesel injectors feed into. The California APL/GEK shop sponsored spark converting a big single cylinder made in India ListerCS clone engine that worked. It was an IDI engine. YouTubes up on that. First running was done on a calculated headgasket reduced 13/1? 15/1? compression ratio. 2nd year running was set up differently. ??
More inline with your project the Swede Johan Lindel (sp) spark converted an English David Brown 3 cylinder tractor and woodgas powered it. He YouTubed this and you can find his site link there. He grafted on a Volvo 6 cylinder car distributor and used every other cap post. You want to grinb back internally the unsued posts contacts to prevent spark flashover jumping.
Measuring the cranking compression will be futile as compared to anything because of your very well used engine condition. You are sure to have a lot of rings/piston skirt/cylinder walls pressure blowby. Since woodgas has proven able to run down to 6/1 compression ratio engines it should run OK. Try a measured ml or cc graduated cylinder tipped engine combustion capacity fill measurement down through an injector hole first. Piston up at top dead center careful first. Then piston lowered down to bottom dead center and refilled. Use warmed light enegine oil or a warmed vegetable oil. Done carefully you can then calculate the current set up effective CR within 10% accuracy. IF you come up with anything 17/1 or lower assuming worn pressure loss blowby as losing 2 points effective CR I’d just run it as is. JohanL never comression lowered his. Just ran it as is. I asked.
Try this for a refernce read if you’ve never seen it:
http://driveonwood.com/sites/default/pdf/record168.pdf
IISc research paper studing the effects of differet spark ignition advance setting at different compression ratios. This was done on three different former DI diesel engines so lots of combustion chamber shape, piston crown shape, stroke to bore, and rod lengh to stoke ratio factors mixed in there. This was done intentional as represenative of the actual engines they were useing out in the field for power generation and pumping. The CPGL of the IISc is only into practical use applied research. Interesting the highest produced cylinder combustion pressures at 55 bars was at the expremes of 17/1 and 11.5/1 CR’s in different engines at different ignition timing settings. Read completey to not miss the measures heats for shaft, coolant and exhaust porportions break outs. Where you get the actual engine conversion efficieny base numbers.
Search up “Cummins India Producer Gas Engines” and see if you can get some leaked out hard info. Alls I can ever find get are fluff hints.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Steve,
Do you know what type of ignition was being utilized for these conversions?
1 Like
Hello PeterC
You can find references on gasious Caterpillar, Cummins and Greeves engines as using Altronic ignition systems and the pictured componets look it.
www.altronicinc.com/products.shtml
Look here and you can see these can be an accessory geardriven CD-like triggered battery spark system; to flywheel or camshaft sensor triggered. All have individual cylinder IG coils. Don’t look to have fantastically high voltage capability. But lots of spark duration capability I am sure. And knock sensor triggered spark timing and load setback capable.
Jenbacher and Guascor installed ignitions systems look to be different than Altronics with larger squarish shaped individual IG coils. These could be higher voltages capable. They both do quote as fully electronic controllable.
http://www.guascor-usa.com/
The Prakash pictures show an actual distributor assembly being accessory geardriven in the place of the former diesel injection pump. Small cap; 7mm wires and a standard looking single oilfilled IG coil so for sure not super high voltage capable. Triggered? Could be anything from actual ignition contact points but more likely distributor internal electronic manetic triggered and amplified. NO visible external processor amplifier box.
Johan Liddel on his Volvo 6 cylinder distributor? Contact point type or electrinic? I do not know.
Altronics shows supplying a special “FashGuard” spark plug, Shielded conventional electrodes? Surface discharge type? Donno.
I’ve seen pictures of the Jennbacher spark plugs - long and skinny with conventional electrodes. I have woodgas loaded ran a Kubota high compression gasious converted engine DG972. Spark plugs - standard ND electrode type - gap set 1.1mm (0.040"). Was a flywheel magnetic triggered, individual to each cylinder coiled Denso branded system. NOT HighEnergy capable. Standerd 20KV to 35KV.
Hope this answers
Steve Unruh
Thanks Steve
Need some time to do my home work.