There a dozen plus renewable air fuel companies that are in business right now all using waste wood. Biomass plants are much smaller than solar fields. There is less travel space to utility lines.
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I tried to figure out if there is economic viability for woodgas based grid electricity production. Tried several thoughts and end up in simple math.
You need single tone of ODW chunks to produce single MWh of electricity to the grid. You would be lucky to get 100⏠for that MWh. But that tone of chunks costs 120âŹ. You wonât beat that price by your own production, because producers benefit on economy of scale. End of story.
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Hi the sell price for a ton of biomass energy is $800. A kg of H2 makes 33 KWh. Peak hours electricity is $.25 per KWh. You get 100 kgs of H2 from a ton of biomass. Thatâs a 90% reduction in weight.
100x33x.25 =825
I donât practice pyrolysis or gasification. I practice thermal decomposition. Whatever biomass you have it all becomes one when it becomes charcoal. First you cook the mass at 725F to separate lignin, cellulose and hemicellulose. Then you cook it again at 1200F to change the compounds into CO and H2. The gas is separated, cleaned then tanked or used. The CO becomes H2 with a water gas shiftâŚIts all hydrogen. .I wish you fellows would work on that. I have some cash for you but the H2 has to be really really clean. If you want a cheap 100KWh H2 Cell get a used hydrogen car.
Biomass crop fuel is too expensive. You are left with woody biomass. Protein mass makes hydrogen but insect product sells for 10X moreâŚ
Gasifiers are used to make cooking heat. I donât know how much mass is needed for cooking but these temps 725F and 1200F are below the 2000F wood gas burn temp so you get 2-3 times energy use. Thatâs gotta help
I have wood mass up the wazzu. Look at Midwest Biomass Exchange, I have seaweed and yard waste and Hurricane blow down. California has underbrush. There is always more. Dont restrict yourself to nice hardwood logs.
The one thing I learned from you is not use fresh biomass, itâs always charcoalâŚThe other stuff gets cooked too which is half of the weight you purchased. Around here people get paid to haul away yard waste so that mass is free.
PURPA contracts are automatic sell contracts at 80 MWh 24 hours a day for ten years. Step up to it.
Phillip
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A while back there was a guy posting from I believe Serbia. He wanted to build a community gasification plant for a semi-communal group him and some others were setting up to provide power to individual residences. I remember thinking about how complicated the logistics of that would be. Regardless of what fuel source you came up with it still has to be delivered or gathered and then processed for size. Labor intensive. The power house would need pretty much round the clock monitoring and the gasifier would have to be built to allow for longevity with nearly continual operation. In a group operation it would not take long for the majority of the participants to weary of the grind of running and maintaining the operation and the few with remaining interest would burn out quickly. In my youth I was involved with similar experiments and it was always that same pattern.
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Phillip all of these need GovâMint $$$'s operations are a devise to have the Many efforts taxed, to enrich a Few.
When in a cause-war this will become a necessity. Or you will be overwhelmed; or be set aside and then get to be ruled by another vanquishing system.
In peace-time, not-war . . . all of these âimprove-the-worldâ, âsave-the-environmentâ wealth transfer schemeâs are no different from any of the capitalist and social forced spring-forwards in the past 500 years.
The DOW is about DYI bootstrapping. Done yourself; for yourself and family.
No matter how you sling the numbers it is No Sale, man. No Sale.
Because once to wade into the pay-backs; refunds & rebates; and subsidies: you already lost. Your freedom of actions. Even the freedom to just not do something.
You the hamster, jumped onto their made wheel and will play hell getting back off.
Steve Unruh
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PURPA gets no subsidies, its all market based.
There is a $.03 per KWh Biomass Production Credit
There is a $.04 per KWh H2 subsidy 45v that is ending at the end of this year. Trump is turning off the Inflation Reduction Act with grandfathering.
Market rates are $.25 per KWh and on peak and $.15 per KWh off peak.
PURPA is not tax supported⌠That law forces the distribution company to carry biomass electricity This was passed during the 1970s gas crunch.
You made lots of assertions but didnât refer to one subsidy in particular. So far no one is collecting these biomass credits.
At the end of this landfill pyrolysis where everything gets cooked. You wanna gasify? Go ahead, gasify away.
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Phillip,
You seem to think you have a better mouse trap and a sure fire way of making money off of pyrolysis. Good on ya! Go for it! build something, make it work, post about it, everyone here will cheer you on. Even a scaled down non production model to test your theories (which is all they are at this point) will bring people out of the woodwork. What dozens of people who have tried every permutation of every get rich scheme there is in the biomass world have concluded is that its a huge investment, it gobbles up biomass at an absolute crazy rate so requires a logistical tail not maintainable by small companies, chews through machinery so requires continuous reinvestment, requires a level of knowledge that is almost impossible to automate or hire for all in hopes that the rug does not get pulled out from under you through regulation or legislation change. Biomass energy as supported by large grid based companies is a feel good value signalling thing. If ever you manage to challenge how they make money in a significant way they will take it over or kill it. That is not even a guess as you simply have to see what has happened with feed in solar out west as the percentage of solar on grid increased the rate paid decreased, conditions are getting tougher, insurance companies jacked rates on producers, smaller utilities pushed back hard. Iâll admit to bias, I believe only the small self providing system with limited utility buy back makes any sense. I would love to see a real world example prove me wrong though.
Cheers, David
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I am sorry, Phillip. I canât follow your arguments. Itâs not clear if you want to produce electricity or hydrogen, if you count on subsidy or not, and what the hell you want to do with sustainable fuel. I agree with David. Everybody here wish your dreams may come true through your skills and enthusiasm. Everybody wants to see a unicorn in dark forest.
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Hello Filip, I hope your project is successful.
I will list just a few properties of hydrogen:
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the weight of 1 liter of liquid hydrogen is 71 grams, which means that 1 kg of liquid hydrogen occupies a volume of 14 liters
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a large truck consumes an average of about 35 liters of diesel fuel per 100 km, manufacturers state that the same truck consumes 10 kg of hydrogen per 100 km, which is realistic, since 1 kg of hydrogen is more than 3 times more energetic, but a 5-fold larger storage tank made of special material is needed (pressure, temperature)
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hydrogen production, liquefaction and storage is a very demanding process that requires a lot of expensive equipment, when we look at the entire energy balance of these processes, I do not dare to write an efficiency figure, in my opinion, the energy invested is several times higher than the one used for work (transporting the truck), from this point of view this is a pointless thing to do
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1000 kg DRY biomass (wood) contains 4000 kWh of energy, from which I can obtain 1000 kWh of electricity in a âhomeâ gasifier (efficiency 25%) and if we take into account the losses in the electric generator of about 15%, we have 1150 kWh of energy for work directly on the motor shaft (efficiency 29%)
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you state that from 1000 kg of biomass you obtain 100 kg of hydrogen, (3300 kWh of energy), well, you did not state how much energy you use for thermal treatment or for the course of this process (heating biomass in a container from the outside represents large heat losses, the process is slow) and when you have pure hydrogen gas at the output, you can obtain approximately 14 kWh from 1 kg in a fuel cell âŚ
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final estimate of âhydrogen from biomassâ without taking into account âadditional energy for conversionâ:
1000 kg of biomass ⌠100 kg of hydrogen âŚ1400kW of electricity ⌠1190 kW of mechanical work⌠efficiency 30%
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Id like to make some money⌠PURPA, for whatever reason, good and bad, is most accessible to meâŚ
PURPA lets you sell renewable energy to the grid. That being said, you need to sell alot. 100 KWh to begin. What are my options? I need to sell downtown where the demand is.
Woodgas engines? I canât parallel them to the grid nor can I store syngas. I canât run syngas engines downtown. I need five or ten.
If I make a CO and H2 stream I can store those gases and run those machines downtown. CO is better because it doesnât blow up, just keep the tank outside so the CO dispurses into the air. The CO needs to be paired with a cryogenic separator at the point of creation and then a WGS reactor. Those cryogenic units arenât sold because the industry makes CO a different way and pallet sized WGS reactors are hard to come by for whatever reason H2 is used by Hydrogen fuel cells. You can obtain a methane reactor that makes stock fuel and then I can use a stock engine.
I say I want to make H2 because I supposedly I can make or use H2 in a / for a H2 fuel cell. H2 fuel cells are sold onlineâŚMethane reactors must be custom ordered and built.
I can the cooking away from downtown. I need a fuel cell or methane generator for downtown.
I wonât make stock fuels. I can buy a synthetic gasoline reactor but that a big operation to pay for the machine like six semi trailers of wood chips every day
Yea so H2 PURPA aside from subsidies because itâs seemingly concise.With subsidies its better
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Since you are planning on transporting it, you might be better served to skip purpa, and make 2nd gen biofuels.
It is essentially a fischer-tropsh reaction fine tuned for the output. It input co and hydrogen and creates a liquid which gets rid of a lot of the storage and transport concerns, and it has been done already.
If you want to âmake moneyâ, you sell it as aviation fuel.
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So, your business plan in short story:
You want to be an Independent Power Generator under PURPA regulations.
You want supply utility grid with 100 kW power in 24/7 mode. Because service outages are necessary, let assume 8000 hours a year.
You will generate power by grid connected hydrogen fuel cell generator unit.
You will fuel your generator by hydrogen produced off-site from biomass using pyrolysis, cryogenic separation and WGS reaction.
Off-site produced hydrogen will be shipped to generator unit by common available truck and pressurized gas tanks.
You expect to sell your energy at average price of $200 per MWh.
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Yes thatâs a good summary thank you
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So we have tennis court outlined, letâs start the match. 
Fuell cell generators are available online, but complete containerized are not easy to find. Typical system is for off-grid purpose, so grid tied system would need customization. I found two rated at 100kW. Chinese one cost $170 000, Japanese $420 000. Letâs count with price $200 000 for container tied to grid.
Lifespan of such system is in lower tens of thousands hours. Chinese one has 15000. We may have better one for higher price, so count with 20000.
With such a system you will generate 2 milion kWh and get $400 000 income.
Unit could generate 16 kWh out of kilogram of hydrogen. You would need 125 000 kilograms of hydrogen to produce above mentioned output. You will need to produce hydrogen with cost less than $1.6 to run your business with profit. Current least price of green hydrogen is double of that.
To get your hydrogen to the cell, you need pyrolyser, separator, wgs reactor and at least two storage caontainers with presurized gas tanks to hold hydrogen. Itâs more costs to your balance sheet. Canât estimate the amount, these things are not readily on the market. But I would doubt that it would be less than cost of generator. It makes your cost of hydrogen exactly at the limit.
Even if much of the hardware will last longer than 20 000 hours, it is time for major system overhaul with cost of say 40% of initial investment. Itâs another $160 000 investment to get $400 000 income.
So far, we did not incure any operating costs, taxes, licences, fees, ⌠And your investment was your own cash to avoid count with loan repayment. To make a bottom line: I do not see to much money left for you. Sorry for that.
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You have to buy a used Toyota car. You have to put a plug on the wheel motor wire and connect to a transformer to make voltage for the 100KVa transformers and then 100KVa transformer to connect to the grid. You need a governor to read the load and run the gas pedal.
I can make Hydrogen with protein and KOH. Its very clean. I need to compress it and fuel the car. Then you park the car and put the motor plugs in and start the car.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/all-cars/toyota/mirai?searchRadius=0
You are cheating, Phillip. 
I thought we agreed the assumptions. So what the hell has protein and KOH common with pyrolysis, cryogenic separation and WGS?
If this is the new way to produce hydrogen. How much KOH do you need and what is the price. Where do you obtain proteins. What is the chemistry and physics. How do you plan to treat waste? Many other questions.
And I rather do not dispute willingness of any utility to tie the grid to such a generator. 
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Iâm sorry I offended you. I apologize. I appreciate your cyber friendship.
Alkaline Hydrolysis is a much faster way to make H2 than wood chip recycling but there is much much less protein available than wood chips. This is my fall back plan.
I have a health science degree. There is a process called âwater cremationâ. Water cremation is the melting of human bodies. Except it doesnât only work on human bodies it works on all meat. You can use Sodium Hydroxide NaOH or Potassium Hydroxide KOH. KOH is easy to make from wood fire ashes so its free that way. Alkaline Hydrolysis breaks proteins into amino acids and then into ammonia and ammonia comes out of solution at 180F and makes a vapor. You collect the vapor and use an "Ammonia Cracker. Ammonia Crackers are readily available for sale on the net. Ammonia Crackers use electricity but they donât. The electricity is used for heating but you can use gasifier syngas fire because the temp range is good so this process doesnât use electricity so far The nitrogen and hydrogen get separated in a way that is available for sale now like membranes or cryogenics so there is some electrical use maybe. The leftovers are fatty acids and bone fragments. The cremation people say this safe for the sewer. Potassium isnât toxic, sodium is so I use potassium. The fatty acids can be used to make biodiesel but thatâs not the point of this exercise.
A ton of fish meal sells on Alibaba for $100 -150. At worst itâs 50 percent protein at the most its 90 percent this meal is trash fish and blood and organ and slough from slaughter houses all dried. Fish doesnât have fat. You can use this protein to grow maggots, they love the stuff. Maggots sell for much much more than electricity so I avoid this.
To calculate Hydrogen harvest find a random protein molecule and calculate the weights of the hydrogen and non hydrogen molecules. Thatâs your harvest. It doesnât look like much like 25%. This pathway is technically feasible but its not very profitable.
I think I satisfied some of you tech challenges with the used hydrogen car. Yes or no? If so we can talk about processing.
You might not need those transformers btw but youâll need something else. Discuss laterâŚ
Iâm happy to inform you about hydrolysis
Yes you need a two stage pyrolysis machine⌠You need an oxygen free wood cooker⌠thatâs 55 gallon quality steel. You cook once at 750F. I have that now its a third of a 55 gallon drum with a lid. After that you collect lignin, hemicellulose and cellulose. The lignin is tar, the hemicellulose is methanol and acetic acid and formic acid and softwood turpentines and the cellulose is charcoal. After that you thermally decompose three substances separately with 1200F heat then you get your CO and H2 stream.
Talk about that.
.
Could you tell us how to make MeOH? My interest is MeOH ==> CH3-O-CH3 ==> Olefins.
Rindert
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The tar, methanol, acids and turpentine all sound useful once theyâre separated, but pretty nasty mixed together. Is there a straight-forward way of doing the separation? Whatâs the engineering phrase, the Devil is in the details?
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