Hey Steve,
That link you put up there is no good 404 error. timeandbeing.com is a political/religious…well I’m not sure site. I couldn’t find wood feed stock info. I do not want to have my ‘fier’ become a soylent green pellet eater. I will just feed what I have for now and compare gas production of different nozzle heights,lengths,hole sizes etc. I can get lots of this material and it’s pretty consistant for testing.
I got some steel at the scrap yard in Medford today. enough to build three different inserts for experimenting plus much more. $39… I’ll be cutting and welding tomorrow.
in search of the sweet spot.
Pepe.
Thanks,but I just watched them again the other day. all 7 of em. I will watch again tho till I can fully get it all plus some. With you DOW guys and all the open source info out there I’m in good hands. Just a tired brain at the moment. Gordon
Hi Gordon,
I can relate to the brain overload. However, I just watched part 4/7 of the Science of gasification and the first 3 or 4 minutes made me immediately think of your situation. This one really bears another look when the brain has relaxed a bit. Hang in there. As an old friend told me, it’s only a machine, it can’t beat you! lol. Tell the machine!
Pepe
Pepe,
I actually watched #4 again and then #5. My brain puffed back so I relaxed a bit and then I watched the other #4 like you suggested and yes…a big help.Great info.
I’m going to try and accomplish what SteveU said “Evolve towards a design able to fuel with the woods and chunks sizing you are able and willing to make up”. I believe that is a wise suggestion too.
I’m off this morning to build my first insert adapter. With the adapter I will be able to remove it and change my hole size, height, length,angle,amount of,any idea of arrangement I want to experiment with. This will give me a better understanding as I go along also.My adapter sleeve is just under 9 " so I’m not loosing too much firetube diameter. The adapter will be a “tar fence” Hearth insulator,and an air intake preheat HX, all in one. Gordon
Hi Gordon,
The thing I love about DOW is that everyone is on your side and wants to see you succeed. Steve U is at the top of that list. The man is a walking encyclopedia on gasification (and a whole bunch of other stuff I can’t begin to understand) and I owe him many thanks. To receive a “good advice given” comment from him is a real compliment, thanks, Steve. When I read his comment “Evolve towards a design able to fuel with the woods and chunks sizing you are able and willing to make up” I couldn’t agree more.
Here’s some pics to show my fuel size, basically 1 1/4" to 3" round branch type stuff, mixed hardwood, cherry, maple, elm, hardack ? I also had some 1 1/2" cubes mixed in. There was a better lesson for me in the pic. I had it fired up producing good gas and then the quality deteriorated to the point of losing a sustained flare. The gas would burn if I held a torch to it, though. Yup, what??? I let it go for another half hour and then I couldn’t light the gas at all???. After cool down I opened it up and saw picture one. That dark spot in the center of the fuel that looks like a hole is just that. A fuel bridge! Wow I said. Wonder how big it is? The second picture shows it collapsed. The third pic shows the settled depth, nozzle height. The hole had burned to over a foot or more high (deep looking down). Another wow! Plus a holy $$$! I was mostly just burning wood at the end. Worse yet the char bed was being consumed also and not being replenished! That spurred me to add a hopper vibrator like Dan Cox’s.
I also decided not to use anything over 2 3/4" diam or cubes. I cut the fuel as long as its diameter.
Thought you’d like to see this real life hiccup. Pepe
Hi Gordon,
The thing I love about DOW is that everyone is on your side and wants to see you succeed. Steve U is at the top of that list. The man is a walking encyclopedia on gasification (and a whole bunch of other stuff I can’t begin to understand) and I owe him many thanks. To receive a “good advice given” comment from him is a real compliment, thanks, Steve. When I read his comment “Evolve towards a design able to fuel with the woods and chunks sizing you are able and willing to make up” I couldn’t agree more.
Here’s some pics to show my fuel size, basically 1 1/4" to 3" round branch type stuff, mixed hardwood, cherry, maple, elm, hardack ? I also had some 1 1/2" cubes mixed in. There was a better lesson for me in the pic. I had it fired up producing good gas and then the quality deteriorated to the point of losing a sustained flare. The gas would burn if I held a torch to it, though. Yup, what??? I let it go for another half hour and then I couldn’t light the gas at all???. After cool down I opened it up and saw picture one. That dark spot in the center of the fuel that looks like a hole is just that. A fuel bridge! Wow I said. Wonder how big it is? The second picture shows it collapsed. The third pic shows the settled depth, nozzle height. The hole had burned to over a foot or more high (deep looking down). Another wow! Plus a holy $$$! I was mostly just burning wood at the end. Worse yet the char bed was being consumed also and not being replenished! That spurred me to add a hopper vibrator like Dan Cox’s.
I also decided not to use anything over 2 3/4" diam or cubes. I cut the fuel as long as its diameter.
Thought you’d like to see this real life hiccup. Pepe
Pepe,
I have had this happen more than once. If I shake the heck out of the hopper then I get good gas again quick. I have a bridging problem that has to be addressed. I seem to end up with a rat hole you could fit a football in. burnt right thru the middle. Jenga stacked blocks all around my hopper 6 " up. I don’t like the idea of shaking the whole machine to unbridge. I will just make a shaker rod that moves my inner liner back and forth. I have an inner liner that sits about 1/2" inside my outer hopper skin to keep wood away from my condensation flow. It’s not welded in. It’s removable.
I almost got my adaptor finished by 10 AM this morning and then had a family matter that took up the rest of the day. nothing bad. I will be running a load of wood tomorrow I hope. I will take pics of adaptor and post. Gordon
Gordon; Did you get the E-mail I sent to you?? Don’t you think that because you had your nozzles sticking so far out from the wall and the nozzles pointed down towards the restriction, that all the heat-pyrolysis-oxidation- and reduction in one point above the restriction, that everything along the walls was not getting oxidized? Thus the “rat” hole and need to shake the wood on the sides down into the hole to get more good gas. TomC
Hi TomC,
Yes! That is exactly what’s going on. I am going to lower my nozzles and make them shorter for a better air shot at the restriction and a full burn across the restriction for the tar gasses to pass through. Thanks for the simple explanation of the chemical reactions in previous posts. I’m sure this will help solve many problems us beginners have in creating the gas necessary for complete conversion to maximum power clean gas. Between you, SteveU, Wayne and his book, Bill, Pepe, DanC and all others helping. I’m getting closer. The cutting back of the nozzles was a blessing.
My air nozzles were: 8- 3/8"
Firetube is: 10" originally- now: 8 7/8" diameter w/ 8" deep to restriction.
I’m thinking I can make any combination adaptor sleeve that is removable and can be changed like a carburator jet to run many size fuels and be adjusted for the HP of the ICE. I haven’t seen this done, but I’m sure someone has somewhere. Maybe there’s a good reason why noone is doing this. I can’t see why it won’t work. I guess I’ll find out. If nothing else…it will be interesting.
Thank You guys @ DOW, Gordon
Hey GordonO
Yes I know that the timeandbeing folks are religios/political.
The PlanetX folks as 180 from that have/had also linked up some older woodgas link/info too.
What I’d been tring to link you to was their saved back copy of the 2010/11 VictoryGasWorks sales brochure that had the for Victory SS insulated systems "recommended fuel types, “useable fuel types with system adaptations needed” and the no-bloody-way crap fuels.
Another way around this hopper tar gluing/bridging problem is going to tall skinny hoppers.
Yes for the fuel bridging, center rat hole burning problem shaking can be used with care. Stirring chunks you will find will become a make a mouse trap complicated to keep from bending/twisting up your arms/fingers. Old stationary systems used lifted then gravity dropping rods for this.
Another way around this fuel chunks tar gluing/bridging problem is tall skinny hoppers. See my system photos.
Hi SteveU,
I still couldn’t find the saved back copy of BP’s "useable fuel types with system adaptations needed"on the timeandbeing website. I see your gasifier tall hopper. I was trying to keep mine a bit shorter,but I see the benefits of a tall hopper. I’m going to try my inner liner shakedown and see what happens. I got called away again as I was loading my char for a light-up yesterday. I am getting a travel trailer so I can live next to the shop and really get some work done. I made an adapter and installed it yesterday. I haven’t put the nozzles in yet and the different hole arrangements but I thought I would run it anyway. Here are some pics:
Gordon; Could you put something in the pictures so we get an idea of the size of what we are looking at a pencil or ruler or coin?
I think Steve U’s point is— fuel size. If you cup your hands together and fill them with sand— then drop the sand over your restriction/nozzle adapter, the sand will fill the center. IF you cup your hands again and put 3 rocks in them and drop them over the adapter-- they might line up in the cylinder, 1,2,3. But more likely they will hit the edge and bump into each other and bridge.
Rat Hole is part of the process. If the RH is too small in diameter for the feed stock you get bridging. That is why I recommended you cut your nozzle tips back to oxidize a bigger RH. The oxidation and reduction above the restriction makes the feed stock smaller so that it will pass the restriction. I think, this distance is important to get it down to size. The RH can’t be too big or you won’t get enough gas/air movement speeding up going through the restriction to keep the EXothermic , burning and giving off heat, to keep the process going below the restriction where the reduction process takes full control. Thus back to tar.
I haven’t heard from you so I assume you haven’t received the pictures I’ve been trying to send you. I will send you a plain E-mail without pictures and see if that comes through. I mailed 2 more E- yesterday.TomC
Hey, hey Guys
I kept getting 403’ed so could not finish up yesterday. New day, we will see . . .
Fuel chunk hopper bridging/gluing yes can be combated with also tall skinny hoppers.
Yes works mechanically by NOT having hanging up edges or cones AND by distance dropping down the fuel chunks. Just like a drop tube on a firearms cartridge powder kernel charging system. Feeding down molasses sticky feed grain down flow tubes. Woodgas examples, mine, VictorygasWorks youtube videoed systems late 2009 into 2011, 2nd generation Mukunda systems from the late 80’s into the early/mid 90’s.
Using the tall skinny hooper you discover that more important than the mechanical shape is that these with closer in wall are wall heated much from the rising center heat plume than short and fat. And this is good chimney design techniques. Oil lamp chimneys.
This heated walls keeping the tars liquid, fluid and gravity flowing down discovery leads then to intentionally heating the lower hopper walls.
Now back to Ben Persons book system pages 18 “pyrolysis accelerator”/pages 90-106 “Heat Recovery system” and soot-dropper combined purposes SYSTEM. Wayne’s WK if built right, operated right, does this same lower hopper walls tars ring heating with enhanced tars refining out and removal.
Shucks.Getting 403’ed again to sum up!!
Mechanical intervening by shaking/stirring can be viewed as brute forcing the situation. Works with enough inputs. Just like a BIG catalytic converter can “garbage truck” clean up a lots of sins in engineering!
Ladder and/or platform needing tall skinny hoppers viewed as at least acknowledging that thermal factors and the inevitable raw wood tars are there. Ha! Ha! Just more fuels!
It is intentional lower hopper heating and tars heat and circulation refining separating systems that show elegance in Working WITH the relevant factors of mechanical, thermal and tars for overall wood-to-shaft power system efficiency benefits.
Hi Tom,
Yes! I got your email yesterday. sorry I didn’t mention it. I love the small car set-up in the file. The only problem I have is I need to buy Microsoft Office to keep the file. I just moved the email to a mail folder and I can access that way. Very nice info to have. Thank You! I understand what you are saying about the rat holing I have going on. My wood is too big. Here is a pic of the firetube with a ten dollar bill in it for sizing. Blocks just stack so I will make them smaller.
Hi SteveU,
I do understand the high narrow hopper benifits. I have to work with what I have here. My blocks are just too big. With my original jet design I got good heat up high and glueing was never a problem just “jenga” stacked blocks that would stack up the hopper sides and not fall in without a big shake of the machine. I don’t like that. I will make smaller blocks (don’t like that) or will make a hopper inner liner shaker or a stir system. I think cutting my jets 1/2 as much as I did would have given me the firetube burn I am looking for.Lowering the jets didn’t work in today’s burn,but I didn’t have jets in and my restriction is 5 13/16" big. Worked pretty good til I hacked off my original jets. I will repair it tomorrow. GordonPs. great statement : “It is intentional lower hopper heating and tars heat and circulation refining separating systems that show elegance in Working WITH the relevant factors of mechanical, thermal and tars for overall wood-to-shaft power system efficiency benefits”.
Hey SteveU, I have seen this when Ben had his website still going. I always thought ‘what a great business this guy has’. What happened? did he get sick of building. get sued, retire rich,go broke? What happened? I hope his new quest is successful. This pdf was a great bit of info recovered. Thank you.
I had a great run today. got my flame back. It was only stainless steel filtered but a 3foot flame with the vac on high.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!! to ALL, Gordon
Good Morning GordonO
This fuel recommendations was use/proof evolved for downdraft gravity settling systems.
Gasification Systems can, and have been made and operated on the three last NOT Recommended fuels types.
But then a fellow is forced into a lot of system feeding automation’s. Systems that will NOT then run on the easier, energy process saving, more direct use, chunky wood fuel bases. EVERYthing then Must be first shredded/ground/redensified back-up to be able to controlled fuel feed in then. Simple goes out the window. Rube Goldburg and tweek/geek engineering and system dependencies steps in and takes over.
And this last point as well as anything explains why BenP shut down his Victory sites.
In answer to your direct asked what happened’s: No, No, No and No.
You did hit it with the “sick of”
Not sick of building. Sick of others trying to drag him into their world views. Their paranoia’s. Their religions. Their Ooooh, Woo-Woo fantasies.
Sick of people hacking his sites, secret squirrel measuring up and photoing in his shops, and real vans/camera trailing back to his home where his wife and children lived.
He wanted his privacy, personal security and freedom to enjoy his own views and beliefs systems back.
Now it is take what he chooses to offer up. Or not.
Ha! Ha! More evolving to like me and WayneK. Come and visit, sure. CALL FIRST.
(mycase) Mind the last 12 miles of literal Deliverance type roads. The rednecks IDing and eyeballing you as an outsider. The run around dogs and chickens and such.
Leave your preaching and world saving at home and for internet choice. MY Choice. I got my own beliefs I am quite happy with, thank you much.
So anyone wanting to find a scapegoat for Bens bailing out to get control back over his life . . . well I’d guess that’d be me. Showing him the example.
Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh
Hi SteveU
That is a shame Ben got sick of all the things that come along with new ideas related to alternative fuels. Many have come and gone from the harassment of the established cartels. I spent 10 yrs in Paradise with a 1 mile serious 4X4 driveway that even forded streams to be alone and away from the madness. Now I’m back with an added on generation of little souls to help defend. With all the horrific things that sent me to the ‘hermit farm’ I guess I just figure “what can you do to me now…bring it on- been there and I can deal now so…what ya got”. I don’t like having to be this way but it is a far different world than it used to be. We live above everyone else around and a long driveway up there so we can see who’s comin from a ways away. 12 miles would be along drive thru your gauntlet of neighbors.I WILL call first.
I’m still trying my combos of nozzle height and variation and it’s hard to determine how much better the gas is getting. I got my thermocouple yesterday so that will help. My last gas was a nice purple w/orange ring’2 ft’ but turned almost clear and just a heatwave 2 ft long. was bright day tho… no steam of smoke so I’m getting closer to full tar conversion. My machine can be converted now with different size choke plates and nozzles w/all the combos one can think of. I got to admit… I’m having fun with the challenge.
I hope to make a video today. been 5 days of frozen fog and mist. Shop door is open so this Hawaii boy is gettin used to Oregon frozen fingers again quick. I don’t know how you guys up north do it. I’m still in wus cold here. Gordon …damn forbidden… yep all I had to do was get rid of the parentheses
