Excellant reply SeanO.
Meaty. Lot to chew on there.
Some was the kind of guy MikeL was. He was not a throw ideas up on a wall and see what sticks. He only wanted to show his ideas after he had made and tried them. Wrung them out for advantages and disadvantages.
On the useing heavy mass drake drum rotors as your core one of the disadvantaged he pointed out to me was long from cold heating up times.
S.U.
That had to have been annoying. I wonder if there’s a GNU GPL style license agreement but for physical inventions. Free to download but don’t monetize it.
I have a thought , its only a thought mind you as i only speak about what i have personally attempted or built and i know 100%sure there are guys on here that could get clean gas from a baked bean tin for sure .
Derrick i am a charcoal user , i did just like you i started with a FEMA , we all have to start somewhere right anyway i built it i guess just as you did following the instructions posted on forums around the world , i did not add my bit too it as i did not have a clue what i was doing , anyway the out come was a burnable gas , yes amazingly it worked first time , and i am sure as sure can be the reason was because i am a crap welder i went over every welded point and pipe joint with silicon i made sure even the fan was sealed with no chance of a air leak , i even offered the gas up to a generator and blow me if it didn’t just start up and work , how lucky was i .
Before running again i stripped out my filter material of sawdust and found a horrible black/brown foul smelling sawdust pile from inside , so refilled with clean sawdust
and later i did the same routine of firing up the gasifier and again i got great burnable gas but now no way would the generator start up , i noticed that it was spinning over far too easily first thing i did was plug out ,was ok so then the rocker cover came off and yep the exhaust valve was stuck down tight , it had been a few days since the last run and so with a little gentle heat and some very large screw drivers and levers i got it free and back together and running again , but almost straight away after that second run i came across Garry Gilmores simple fire on YouTube and have not looked back since as it does all i need it too do with hands off run times ,i don’t try to fix something that isn’t broken , i guess what i am trying to say is before you change anything on that fema as i can tell your itching to have one more go before tearing it down , go back check you have every joint and weld and i do mean every pin hole sealed up and a good suction fan on the end and you will make burnable gas , and as soon as you have achieved that it will inspire you more than words to move onto a proven design gasifier be in wood or charcoal . there is not a week go’s by that i am not impressed with what the people on here build ,they are all artists of the highest order and my hats off to them all we all learn from everyone’s mistakes and achievement’s
All the best Dave
Dave,
You would make a great wood-gas motivational speaker. Very impressive. I had already gotten the memo on the FEMA’s shortcomings before building anything, so I started with the SimpleFire and, I too, am satisfied that it provides what I need. Thank you, Gary Gilmore.
Thank you Steve , i just say what i see and what i think i know , but sometimes it does get me deep in the doo doo though , when i misinterpret how something works !
Dave
Thank you Dave for your encouragement, and thank you again to all on this forum. A person can go on Google or Youtube and figure out the basics of gasification, but there is no where to get good troubleshooting advice I have found except this forum, what a unique treasure.
I enjoyed watching the charcoal gasifier video and I could easily change over what I have to what was pictured in the video, but in practicality I don’t know where I could get a constant supply of charcoal that would not entail a massive amount of work to make it and chop it up into a usable size. If I can get the wood gasifier functional, at least the fuel source will be much more feasible to me.
I think I am getting closer. I stopped up the hole where the shaker linkage passes through and checked the seal at my ash clean out door - these are really the only two places vulnerable to an uncontrolled oxygen leak. Like you mentioned Dave, any joint that was suspicious, I sealed with RTV.
This last test was a little better, after heating up for a few minutes, I tested my gas at the flare, it was a very light smoke and when I put the propane torch to it the smoke immediately disappeared and you could see a hint of an orange flame igniting, but try as I might, I could not get it to stay lit. I took this as a sign of progress, but what could this be indicating? I am guessing still uncontrolled oxygen getting in the mix? I am thinking I need to rework my ash clean out door and make sure the seal on that is doing its job. I wish I knew how I could pressure test everything as some have suggested but I don’t really see how I can do this since I never did get the hopper lid to fully seal so I know the whole unit would not hold pressure.
There you go DerrickD, a learning experience.
“. . . my gas . . .was a very light smoke and when I put the propane torch to it the smoke immediately disappeared . . .” That sir is converted woodgas.
A translucent see-through haze is what an experienced woodgasifier guy is looking for.
Actual flare are tricky. Has a lot to do with the gas flow speed and air mixing off the end of the pipe. Why most make a pipe end air mixer nozzle like that propane torch tip has.
Do you lite the propane torch with a flint cup striker?
It so , use that directly instead to light your flare gas to check spark ignitability as will be needed inside the engine.
Real had the many hours experiences woodgas engine runners usually do not flare but just go by gas haze, (and smell) experiences before engine using.
What helps is to have a gas temperature outlet gauge. You can see this in another new members videos, Dean Lasko:
The gasifier in its converting section must get up to 650 degrees centigrade and higher.
Good finished gas outlet will read at least 500-700 degrees Fahrenheit. Dean’s BensBook system gasifier does two internal heat recovery steps so will read on the lower side in the 400F range when fully draw loaded pulled.
This is another great failing in the F.E.M.A./Stratified Downdraft design concept. They simply do not have the controlled air narrowed down concentrated super hot zone to ever be good thermal-chemical converters.
I am with you on continuing to pursue raw wood for DYI engine generator running.
Can be done. Has been done. Is being done.
Difficult. Yes. But the ONLY way you will ever make a true smoke-free, year-around pick-up sticks energy fueling system.
I still have two older diesel engines systems. I refuse to buy into a newer, better diesel engine system that would make me to have to buy, and supply DEF (diesel emissions/exhaust fluid). Charcoal-tiering, simplifying, and IMO you make yourself dependent on a specialized pre-made, Again.
Regards
Steve unruh
You make it. Wood needs to be same size pieces as well. The main difference is the cost of the toys err tools to get it in the right size. If you make charcoal, you can drive over it to crush it and sort it through 2 screens into a wheelbarrow. versus WK’s chunker uses a 50+hp tractor and an old baler flywheel and gearbox, and which costs a lot more. There are other ways to make chunks like the rebak style etc, but those aren’t cheap either or you can just cut them by hand or use a press but you still have to process the wood in some manner to get similar size pieces or it doesn’t work well.
Sean you also forgot that while making wood chunks your friends don’t stand around telling you story’s about the good ole days and sharing a beer while on the other hand just yesterday i made a 45 gallon drum of charcoal with friends chatting around a nice warm fire ( video to follow ) wow that was real hard work NOT !
A charcoal crusher is pretty easy to make as well. I made one with some flat bar stock and a length of round bar stock, used two pillow block bearings and made an angle iron frame, wedged it into a box and screwed a little grease drum as the feed hopper. I have it on stands and let it all collect into a kiddy pool and shovel it onto a screen ramp to get the dust out.
I am linking this back up to DerrickD last comment.
Did you charcoaltiers even bother to read this?
Have you charcoaltiers even considered that some of us have made a choice? A choice for our own valid reasons.
That some of us feel this constant pushing and pulling new members over to the Dark Side is doing a dis-service to the long term health of the DOW?
No. I think you all do not even realize this.
Well, I’ll tell you. A really good gas maker can do both well. Run engines on both well. Choosing one over the other when best appropriate.
DerrickD, here is the link to Dean Lasko’s youtube channel. View all and realize that he flared off on his first liting off. And by his 3rd flaring with settled established beds he was engineS plural! running.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/uc-x98hF5rbVEnnXxOjZQqyw
If you build an established, test proven design you can get these results too.
FEMA is a shit /sick-joke of a design taking all years of modifying to get to work.
Steve Unruh
So, Dave—you make it and Brian eats it—quite a partnership. Brian’s face shows the main shortcoming I see with charcoal—dust. But if I chose to go the downdraft route using damp charcoal as fuel, I gather that the dust would not be so much of a problem, as Bob has pointed out.
Dear Steve U
did you charcoaltiers even bother to read this?
Have you charcoaltiers even considered that some of us have made a choice? A choice for our own valid reasons.
That some of us feel this constant pushing and pulling new members over to the Dark Side is doing a dis-service to the long term health of the DOW?
What i said to Derrick at no point did i mention he should even go with a charcoal , i said carry on doing what he is doing and once he has finished with the FEMA , he can then build a gasifier with a proven design , at no point was i for trying to lure him onto the darkside ! unless someone else mentioned he should go with charcoal and i missed that post , the mention of charcoal was in defense of how derrick saw the hard work involved in making it and Sean just mentioned that making wood chunks is also labor intensive, i just happened to mention most fire bugs dream is to stand around a fire swilling beer and telling storys as opposed to chunking wood and trying not to get in the way of that large flywheel , its all in fun after all .
But on a serious note lets face it we have all seen people come on here saying they want to run a generator to make emergency power or we want to run our big truck and people who are doers on here give them there best advice and recommend charcoal or wood , no one group has anything to gain by talking them away from one side to the other its just as individuals we think we know what’s best for a certain application and i for one would never talk anyone out of anything they have there heart set on as everyone has the right to make there own mistakes or make there own achievement’s be it in wood or charcoal we are all one of the same when we get into the belly of the beast .
Your Friend always
Dave
PS if i read it wrong then i do apologies as i am getting a bit forgetful these days and dont seem to read things correctly . cheers
Raw wood makes gas. Charcoal makes gas. A raw wood gasifier is designed to torrify the fuel internally while a charcoal gasifier uses a fuel that was torrified externally. The downside of the first is that it requires a fairly complex apparatus and significant fabrication skill. The downside of the other is that making charcoal is going to be either illegal or frowned upon unless you are living in a rural area. However, as Derrick has discovered, there are many pitfalls in reaching a point where actual work can be done with wood gas. He is not a quitter and should be highly commended for that strength, but very few newcomers would have stuck with it so long. The thing about charcoal is that it is simple and quickly gratifying. To have a small engine running in a few days is a sure way to excite and give the incentive to further explore the more complex forms of the process. As for the difficulties of producing one fuel over another. They both require some effort. I’m still waiting to see some one besides Joni pick up crap off the side of the road and motor on.
TomH you just have not been paying attention.
On WayneK’s coast to coast trip he showed pictures while traveling of making up fuel wood with road side woody debris and brush.
Tones yesterday tractor mounted in system made wood char was from mixed wood stocks the consistency of Joni’s road side chipped up fuel wood.
I could cite 3-4 other’s raw wood systems examples.
These will always have either superior fuel moisture removing hoppers (the original monorator guys were said to wow lookie-lou’s with putting snowballs in theirs); or super insulate AND feed in a lot of external heat to be able to carry through excessive moisture thru the hearth for later downstream removal. Dobson; Mikkonen; the Ben’sBook system IF built correctly and operated optimally. Means having always a large enough engine loading to make the needed heats. Not just flaring. Not just engine idling. Not mini-engine fueling.
And on this topic the ones encouraging Derrik to just charcoal do . . . three of you. Look in your mirrors and see this.
The one’s who has done BOTH and engine ran . . . Don Mannes. KristijanL.
Not me.
In the past ten years I can list out quite a number who have come onto the DOW asking for help with their woodgas system who were converted by the charcoaltiers.
We have numerous whole topics on charcoal versus woodgas. I generally do not participate in these. Much. I gave up. Overwhelmed.
But here is the real-real current today of it.
In WWII charcoal for vehicles WAS the city/Urban choice. That charcoal fuel being made out Rural by charcoal makers for money. Smokes, fire hazards, ground pollutions be damned.
This has reversed today.
City and Urban now is the never-never make smokes. Never go out of step with your neighbors. Never, ever, even appear to be doing hazardous activities to the body public.
I can and have made year around, cut, chopped, sawn gasifier wood fuel in close urban neighborhoods. Year around in garages, shops and back yard sheds. And mind your starting up procedure you can too run a woodgasifier electrical generator system smokeless in tight urban setting. Your biggest to neighbors impact awareness being the engine-generator running noise. Use the new super quiet inverter generator units. Solves that. Gary Gilmore was the first here on the DOW showing fueling an inverter-generator.
Can’t do year around useable amounts of charcoal making in an urban setting.
Yeah. Yeah. I expect to get slammed for that one. “I do”, I do, I do" O.K. Show me after full year you’ve made 2000 pounds of wood charcoal in your backyard fire pit, eh. Rural living and woodstove charcoal robbing if using hardwoods - that is believable. Cities/Urban areas are; or have been illegalizing wood heating.
Be Honest. Charcoal making through the total burn ban seasons? Through the seasonal rains and storms? Through the snow and ice on the ground seasons? Here for me that wipes out at least 150 days a year. 90 days total burn ban. 10 for snow. 50 days at least of pouring down raining.
Again, in an unheated garage, shop building or shed a person can make up 100 pounds a day of generator wood fuel. Every single day. Enough for a 2-4 hours use cycle in the morning and in the evening. Yeah. Yeah. City/Urban getting that amount of fuel wood stock is the bugaboo.
Why I have said and will maintain: that DIY using wood-for-your-powers IS A RURAL activity.
Move Rural first! #1. #1. #1.
Figure out all else once you have moved out.
Steve Unruh
Could not agree more.
Totally agree, I moved rural 12 years ago and am so glad I have had the time I have had here to get settled and with each passing year I try to get more self sufficient. I heat with firewood every winter, and try to live as independent as possible. That’s my primary reason for wanting to learn woodgas - my electric provider probably has 2 hamsters running in a wheel to keep the grid going around here. When it goes down, sometimes we get lucky and it’s only a few hours, but we have had several occasions where we have been a week without power. I am out in the part of the county that no one cares about and it always seems we are the bottom of the list to get our power restored. I learned to deal with that a long time ago by hooking essentials into a generator, but only recently under the Brandon economy I woke up to decide I really need to be more self reliant in case gas or propane gets priced out of my ability to provide 5-7 days of electricity- or who knows - becomes unavailable period - nothing would surprise me at this point.
To all the charcoal guys. I do appreciate all the info, it has added to my knowledge base and understanding of gasification because frankly I did not know you could gasify with just charcoal, so that knowledge alone helped me to understand the process that much better. It also provides me with another option if I just can’t get my build working It probably would be easier to go to a coal gasifier, but in the long run I think will make more work for me to make charcoal to fuel it. I really want to try to get the wood gasifier I have functional so that it can do the work for me. I feel like a little more work on my part now, chasing the gremlins out of this thing, will in the end result in less work for me in the long run if I get it right. Like I said before, originally my fantasy was a “mr. fusion” device like on the Back to the Future Delorean where I could put any bio junk in and get power out. I know that this is not realistic, but you get the idea, I want my unit to be as functional as possible and be able to process wood fuel in its most basic stages.
So I don’t have much of a progress report to issue this weekend, but I am working on several different components before my next test, which hopefully will be the final one. I am still working on a new lid for the hopper. I’m not going to test again until it is airtight - I know this is not strictly necessary but I want airflow to be 100% positively controlled by me. The will also let me know how much of an upgrade is needed to my nozzles also. As of right now I just have those 2 half inch pipes delivering outside air to the hearth zone and heat does not seem to be an issue. It seems to be burning hot as hell and easily converts a little wood placed on top to charcoal leftovers in no time at all. Like I’m talking last time I lit it up for a test and figured out it wasn’t working after 10-15 minutes I shut off all airflow intake and exhaust and sealed the lid with still just a slight leak. Within a few minutes I saw all smoke stop leaking out of the lid and figured the fire was starting to smolder itself out and just a couple hours later when everything cooled off a little I opened the lid and there wasn’t a piece of wood left, everything was converted to coal, so it seems to be getting plenty of air to burn hot - but I want to control it 100% and see if it is sufficient to continue to produce this heat with an airtight lid or if not it would lead me to put in a center nozzle or experiment with fabricating a nozzle ring.
Second I am doing some rework on my ash clean out door since I had a few doubts on its integrity - I think there could have been areas with the potential for air leakage so I am reworking that with a new seal also and won’t test again until I know for 100% positive that I’ve got that right.
Finally - someone above, I can’t remember who, made mention of my air pump and led me to wonder if I was getting any leakage there. This is something I had not considered and had totally taken for granted.
It occurred to me, that even if my reactor and all my other components were doing everything right and made its way all through the circuit only to get pushed out by a cheap $8 Walmart mattress air pump that might be introducing oxygen or water vapor into the mix that I might be frustrating myself and shooting myself in the foot - so thank you whoever called that to my attention. To that end I caulked all the pressed together plastic joints on the air pump with RTV silicon to make sure it is truly a closed circuit. I had an embarrassing moment this week when my son, witnessing all of my attempts asked me “Hey dad, how is it that you were able to build Blackhawks airtight and you are having problems here”. (I used to work at Sikorsky building Blackhawk helicopters years ago). That was a little embarrassing for me (leave it to your kid to razz you a little, that’s fair) and I remembered a favorite saying over there “Caulk and paint will make it what it ain’t”. So anyway I went very liberal on the caulk on the air pump anywhere I thought it might possibly let in uncontrolled air and when I get my lid and ash clean outs both rebuilt with improved integrity, I’ll give it another try and let you all know how it goes - hopefully by this time next week I’ll have some good news.
Seeing that little bit of a flare the other day even though I couldn’t keep it lit - did encourage me, because at least I know that I am on the right track. Of course its nice to know you guys are in my corner too and I appreciate all of the good advice and words of encouragement that I have received from everyone on here.
I feel for you on the power company side of things.
Also what part of the country do you live in? I’m in the South-Western part of North Carolina.
Just one other thing to add, while I did suggest a central nozzle to experiment with you really can’t beat a ring of nozzles. Your lower hopper area won’t be hard to convert to that if you use the method in the video I sent to make the air jacket outside of the hopper.
You could also try to find a piece of tank that is slightly bigger than the Hopper’s diameter, and cut holes in the top and bottom of the tank to weld to the hopper, I have done that for an air jacket and it’s pretty simple. Before you put on the air jacket just weld in some 1/2" pipe couplers for you to be able to screw in nozzles. This way you can experiment with nozzle length and the jet size of the nozzles’ tips. Also for repairs.
Here’s a dimension chart found on the Library side of the website, to give you an idea of what the hearth area should look like for an Imberts style build. With your brake drum choke plate you already have the restriction and reduction zone covered. Just plug those lug holes with some bolts.
Hi Cody, I’m in middle Tennessee and I’ve never seen a power company quite like this one.
I’ve lived in Connecticut, Texas and Florida also and never had a power company like this one. They occasionally do “scheduled outages for system maintenance” - which in all my years I never encountered or heard of before until I moved here. And they do it at the worst times of the year, I’ve seen them cut the power for 12 hours in the heat of summer when everyone is running ACs to keep cool and the same thing in the cold of winter. Of course winter time is just an inconvenience for me since I have the wood stove to keep warm, but I think of everyone that has electric heat - what do they do for those 12 hours? How ridiculous. And for all of that, you’d think it would strengthen the grid around here but I’ve seen even small storms come through that can knock it out for a week, so I don’t know what they think they are accomplishing. I think they pull it down periodically to give the hamsters running in the wheel a rest lol.
Yeah, I think if I do add more nozzles, I will probably just just go with a ring instead of a center nozzle. Or a jacket if I can find the stuff around here to make it work. One thing I’m learning through this process is not to “half ass” it - in other words, if I do need more nozzles, why build a center one only to figure out I need more and have to rebuild it again later with a ring? I might as well just do a build that might be a little more effort, but won’t have to be redone or re-engineered later.
Derrick,
I’m just curious—are you testing for leaks by blowing into your gas outlet with a blower and dabbing a small brush with a sudsy solution of dish detergent mixed with a little water on the seams to see if bubbles start to form?
