So the condensing hopper designs allso produce more constant quality gas?
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Hi, Kristijan!
27.8.2018
That “end-drying” happens with silo-condensers too…
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Hi Kristijan,
do you know this report about the invention about the “Monorator” (condensing hopper)? There are some comparisons (graphs of measured heat value over time) of gas quality for wood with different moisture contents for Monorator and classical Imbert designs.
http://www.hotel.ymex.net/~s-20222/gengas/monorator-eng.html
The Monorator is a bit better for dry wood, but much better and more steady in gas quality for moist wood.
Regards,
Til
PS: I just read again more thoroughly Max’s last posts. He had already explained what you can find in this link in other words. But hopefully the link is still helpful, as you can find some graphs in it.
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Hi, Til!
27.8.2018
Thank you Til!
I will always honor my father’s brother in law H.K. Very jovial.
The inventor was S.P.J. Keinänen. ~1938
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Til,
I have the html file of that paper stored on my computer. I have read it over and over again. There is some important design information there that most (NOT WK!) have missed. I think I will read it again right now!
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Hi, Mike!
28.8.2018
My conscience is ticking; we are on Tom’s page!
Do you detail your observation here, or on your own page?
I have an idea of improving? the silo circulation, do you want it on your page or here?
What does Tom say?
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Good reading Til, l heared a lot about this report but never got to it. Thank you.
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Thanks for your consideration, Max. My threads are always open to discussions about wood gas. Despite the fact that the subject sometimes exceeds my understanding, I feel as long as you are on or near the original subject, you should continue in one thread. TomC
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Thanks, Tom!
28.8.2018
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Since @TomC is OK with it, go ahead, Max!
I think I understand your idea about the output producer gas “plank” in the hopper area. 
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Hi, Mike!
28.8.2018
In the
http://www.hotel.ymex.net/~s-20222/gengas/monorator-eng.html
article, there was a hint about
“…to not preheat whole the wood-batch all at once, but to do it progressively, according to demand…”
That is “heat economy” at its best! And favours next start-up!
That reserves the (starting-up) heat to get the actual process going with “full quality” from the very beginning!
Or with other words: Not to spend the “budding” heat to
heat & dry all the wood-lot at once, but only the
“near-by” (above) fuel.
=======================================
I see it as follows: The original construction was low and flat, which means a low layer of humid fuel above the “process”.
From this low level of fuel there was a “short” distance up and out (above the fuel) to the periphery cooler “sink down”.
But now, when higher silos are demanded, it would mean that the rising steam would just condens in the above cold layers of fuel!
To circumvent this, and still use higher silos, a chimney is needed to vent the rising steam up and out to the condensing mantel.
The diameter of this chimney would be ~2/3 of the nozzle-tip-circle diameter.
Starting at 1 – 2 hearth diameter(s) above the nozzles.
At the upper end it would have a T to distribute the rising flow to opposite sides of the condensing mantel.
Worth a try?
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Hi MaxG
The pictured 1940’s-1960’s USSR/Soviet Forestry Department light-rail traction loco’s that I got from a Ukranian fellow DID have steam releasing venting out chimneys at the hopper top ends.
Operational details were not able to be download read.
This device was to allow for usage of as-cut green wood for fuel stocks. probably 40-60% by weight moisture laden woods.
“I think” they pre-burnt some first to expel out gross excessive moisture before closing up for actual gas production. Some of the stills photo’s seemed to show the hopper chimney/extractor vent to be venting (cold weather condensation clouds) while the loco was being worked. How - I do not know.
40-60’s Russia and even here USofA you could get away with lots of visible stinking smelly process emissions as long as the work was getting done.
Today? Not a chance anywhere.
The monorator and a WK tar-gases recycler/refiner system would have no external visible emissions.
I love your quoting, " . . .to not preheat the whole batch of wood at once, but to do it progressively (drying), according to demand . . . " with your why’s, and advantages, detailing out.
Plenty of goo’ed-up, tars glued together examples of why not to whole batch thermally choke a system down!!
Regards
tree-farmer Steve unruh
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Hi, Steve!
29.8.2018
…"… detailing out"… can’t do all practical details in a principal lay-out,
where the principal (methode) is first served as far as possible to
see the “happening” of desired events taken care of!
Taring pressureless flow tubes will have “clic-click” manschett-collars,
easy to open, remove, clean…
They cannot be listed in a principal layout for circulation loops… on one page!
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I read the web page about the monerator condenceing hoppers, what are they saying the athoritys out lawed double wall happer for.? And is he saying its better too heat the fuel or the incoming air? I like the way jo’s monerator center pops out for the easy clean factor.I am still thinking about trying a exturnal gas cooler if i can get some metal caps for pipe clean outs, simular too that one.
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Hi, Kevin!
29.8.2018
In Finland:
During the WWII the ministry of Public Provision was granting licenses for metal purcheses only for projects seen as essential for the survival and functionality of the community!
HARD TIMES!
All kinds of metal was under strict regulation.
That was the reason for forbidding of re-installations of doubble-walled Imberts and equivalent silos.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pre-heating the intake (primary) air is always beneficial!
Pre-heating the fuel is always a “balancing act” between good fuel drying on one hand
and the ability to condens the emmitted humidity (steam) on the other hand.
You need 2 separate areas to fulfill these 2 functions successfully.
======================================
Preheating the primary air in a double-mantel around the hearth
(assisted by an external heatexchanger)
and with the motor’s exhaust first, is one way to promote good gasification.
Then using a double-mantel on the silo (interal, loose) or external for condensing the emitted steam above the hearth, delivered by an “internal stack”.
The return from the double-mantel silo condenser goes to the bottom funnel in the silo.
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Thanks for the explanation Max Gasman, on the imbert of that type, and the steel shortage times. I have a good view of the big low tank and double wall sillo with the funnel and drain, and its condencing effect design.It did take me awile too get the design.Thanks again Max G and Tom C for sharing your design and or design studdys.
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This type of gasifier Mr. Eyraud who filed his patent around 1944, has a design for wood that has a high rate of humidity, in the cone, there is a device for air heating before its release by the injectors, and in the top of the gasifier, a condensation recuperator, a small wonder.
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Agreed. MaxG.
PRACTCAL consideration’s evolve after lay-out idealism’s.
The evolved in-mass-production Imberts having simplified reduced number of air jets rings, and a cleaning out pipe plug for brush accessible in their tight 90 degree outlet at the top of the outer gas jacket. The top plates removable brush-out access to the later production vertical tube coolers.
Always reasons to why systems evolve as they do to functional workable.
“Rocket” legs, and pretty shiny SS with all of the finished metals sanding grains inline, are just as nonfunctional as efficiencies chasing to points ridiculous.
Not acknowledging design compromises backed away from idealism or artistic expressions to get to practical is the age old nemesis to getting anything done in the real world.
S.U.
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Hi, Francois Pal!
29.8.2018
Upper end shorter than Imbert 1929 – 30, lower end looks a bit like an Austrian commercial gasifier, but more “worked out”.
I suspect the lower part had a short life… what’s known about it?
Can it “spiral blow” upward in a converging cone pattern?
Interesting design, but quite complicated. I would need an explanation of what each letter represent. One in particular ‘‘K’’.TomC