Without wanting to be pedantic:
Your % can never be the correct ones, see the concentration tabel below, maybe you mean the COHB value ? ( CO to Hemoglobin bound in %)
A 0,5 % of CO, in breathing air, will kill you in minutes
Yes, standard Pulsoxymeters will not do good diagnostics, therefor the 7 wavelength pulsoxymeter now available (mandatory in the fire truck )
Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.
I guess this all means that any CO production for fuel (such as for a stationary engine/generator) had better be taking place in a structure entirely separated from one’s habitation. And even then the structure would have to be rather open to excellent ventilation. Talk about potential product liability. I wonder just how safe all those gasifiers in Europe were in actual practice during WW2?
If l remember right in averidge one person a day dyed from CO poisoning from gasifier in ww2 europe.
But hey, that doesent determine anything. People are stupid. Its not nice to hear by the news people dyed from CO poisoning, but thain you hear they were sleeping in a small sealed room with a old kerosine radiator on full.
The data you provide is correct. We are looking at the problem from two different points of view. Your data is referring to the concentration of carbon monoxide in the air the victim is breathing. My saturation references are related to the percent oxygen being bound to the patient’s hemoglobin in the red blood cells. There is a dynamic equilibrium between the amount of carbon monoxide (measured in parts per million as indicated in your data) in the air the patient is breathing and the amount of carbon monoxide bound to the hemoglobin molecule (measured as percent carbocyhemoglobin).
One point of confusion in measuring the carboxyhemoglobin level in the blood is that this compound is not differentiated from the regular oxygen/hemoglobin compound (oxyhemoglobin) by most measurement devices. Specifically, the pulse oxymeter uses two different wavelengths of light in conjunction with pulsetile blood flow to detect the amount of oxygenated hemoglobin in the blood. The carbon monoxide bound hemoglobin is measured as usual oxygenated hemoglobin. You can have a lethal poisoning with carbon monoxide and the pulse oxymeter will likely be reporting an oxygen saturation in the blood of 100%! The same problem exists when testing blood with a standard arterial blood gas analyzer as the electrode does not differentiate carbocyhemoglobin from oxyhemoglobin.
I was unaware of the seven wavelength pulse oxymeter. Sounds like a great piece of kit to have for emergency respondents.
I feel honored to rub shoulders (at least virtually) with such fine folks as medical specialist’s Phd’s and such here on our humble little site.
Most of the regular participants here are intelligent resourceful people who know the risks and take responsibility to use precautions. I believe the reason for the huge number of woodgas poisoning in WW 2 is that circumstances forced regular citizen not familiar with such things to use these systems out of necessity.
Steve U’s original point made on this thread was well taken, and should be kept close in mind. that sometimes others stumble onto this site looking for a gee whiz science fair project or easy free energy and it is those who we need to consider when posting. They may not be as acutely aware of the dangers and may lack the mental acuity to take appropriate precautions.
Does CO change form, in the natural outdoor air environment? I wasn’t thinking dilution from the vast outdoor gaseous environment, which has been accepted practice-- to waste the pollutant to outdoor dilution, rather actual natural transformation into other forms such as CO2…or does it just go to a low point and reside there as CO [as it probably does indoors]?
I am a big fan of combustion-outside heating systems. Apply heat to a transfer fluid and use the fluid to heat the dwelling! I know that is not as efficient, but it is a lot safer and cleaner. CO detectors are a must, I believe a CO detector may have saved my wife and I when a gas-fired water heater malfunctioned in our basement. We have always had a CO detector in our home after that incident!
This article reminds us of the dangers of CO and hints at a possible CO poisoning antidote: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/12/antidote-carbon-monoxide-poisoning
This agent is phenomenal: It can rip carbon monoxide right off the hemoglobin… [It] could be life-saving.
Lindell Weaver, Intermountain Healthcare
Wow, that is very interesting news. I hope there is more follow up about this in the coming year. It would be great to have something like this within easy reach when working around gasifiers, generators, and rocket stove mass heaters.
Came across this while looking for answers on a problem I am having with dampness in my charcoal after changing nothing to how I make /grind /store and use , and thought you might have heard about this before , got to admit its the first I have heard of it , read down the page a little . http://www.nakedwhiz.com/wetcharcoal.htm
Interesting article Dave. Now it states that spontaneous combustion is all but impossible in the quantities normally kept in a household. However, if one was making charcoal in quantities for engine power it might be worth caution in it’s storage.
That bagged charcoal briquets they were trying to ignite will hardly burn with an open flame applied unless you add lighter fluid.
I thought the problem was when the charcoal was dry and then heated by absorbing moisture from the air thus releasing its latent heat. The Missouri sawdust gasifier had that problem with the sawdust dryer. Of course I could have that backwards or upside down.
In their conclusions they cite the research results that a house sized pile would be needed to risk spontaneous combustion. Another thing that occurs to me, it’s my understanding that Kingsford type compressed charcoal briquettes are actually made with a certain content of coal.
My intuition is that wood charcoal isn’t dense enough to retain heat for auto combustion, and chemically different than coal, lacking the petrochemical type volatiles.
I keep charcoal in removable top steel drums, that should address moisture and combustion concerns.
I ran a 6" corrugated pvc pipe from my pantry behind my wood stove to 2’ above the water level in my dug well. I then ran my 1 1/2" delivery pipe inside that 6" pipe. This serves 2 purposes. If the frost goes below 6’ and my delivery pipe freezes and ruptures, I can pull it all out from either end. 6’ deep frost and we’re in deep doo anyway. Secondly, a 2" space under my pantry door allows my stove, 6’ away to draw fresh outside air. Yes, I checked it with a smoking piece of wood held at the bottom of the door and with the fire going the smoke gets drawn right across the floor to the stove air inlet. My stove is in my lowest living level (some would say basement) in the family room (cool in summer as are our office, family room (in front of stove) and 2 bedrooms. There is a large enclosed storage area and washer/dryer under the stair well and landing. Yes, no unused space here, unless you count between my ears There are CO detectors in all rooms as well. Then to top it off, I have an 8" SS insulated chimney(almost in the center of the house) reaching up 28 ft, talk about draw, I definitely have it! During the blizzard of 1998, the National guard finally got to all us outlying folks (3 days into the storm). They were particularly cautious about our wood stove and CO until I demonstrated the smoke trail. They asked us what the signs of CO poisoning were, of course we recited them verbatum and added, we watch each other for the signs. We had “walking water” from our dug well and a hand pump sprayer for some fun showers
Does that qualify for getting more for less, Steve?
Pepe
There are CO detectors in all rooms as well. Then to top it off, I have an 8" SS insulated chimney(almost in the center of the house) reaching up 28 ft, talk about draw, I definitely have it! During the blizzard of 1998, the National guard finally got to all us outlying folks (3 days into the storm). They were particularly cautious about our wood stove and CO until I demonstrated the smoke trail. They asked us what the signs of CO poisoning were, of course we recited them verbatum and added, we watch each other for the signs. We had “walking water” from our dug well and a hand pump sprayer for some fun showers 