Why an IC piston engine will Always beat out ANY external combustion system

General Discussion
#41

Well I do have some direct experience with what happen to much of the usage of the Detroit 6V71 and 6V92 engines. Municipal fleets like public transportation districts, school districts, military bases, airports and such by the late 1980’s and early 1990’s were being more and more required to account for ALL of their chemical and lead usage Inputs and outputs. Buy in 100 lead acids batteries and they better have 100 lead acid batteries accounted for turned back in. One lead acid battery unaccounted for was not just theft anymore, but an evirometal pee-loot-ter.
Buy/have deliver in 500 gallons of lubrication oils. Then they were expected to be able to account for all 500 gallons as wasted drained out oil. The assumption was any uncounted for oil was either air or water polluting contributing. The same with coolant anti-freezes.
The Detroits in school buses and transit buses would “lose” a gallon a day of lube oil. Cylinder/rings consumption. Blower and turbo bearings bleed. And especially external leakage from all of the forced pressurized plate covered areas in the blocks. So, no longer just let it weep (prevents rust!) with and occasional external steam cleaning, and daily lube oil topping ups.

Some local fudging initially did go on. Brought in batteries as make-ups. Brought from home used auto lube oils. Water dillution streaching out of drained coolants.
Caught-Busted. Not just individual fired. Agency big-time-fined. Loss of public funding. Management head lopping.

All true. I was there. Saw this.

Steve unruh

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#42

Just sounds like an incompetent management and accounting scheme, possibly agreed on by people with very clean and soft hands?

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#43

I did a lot of historic steam power go-look-see on the logging, farming and small marine-use equipments.
Average ~10 horsepower with, yes, with steam torque. Always never took less than 3 men to operate. One to fuels prep/get water pumper-man One, the fireman/steam maker. The 3 rd the actual equipment operator. The larger the power . . the more men tending needed. 5 to then 10. Lube men. Wipers(men) for the steam washed off lube messes.

Early 1900’s small single cylinder 3-10 hp open hopper IC farm and logging, small boats marine engine only needed ONE man to start and operate.
Now that was personal use, freedom-making.
The ONLY dependency set-back in those early IC was a manufactured off-site-made fuels dependency. Dry cell batteries for the ignition.

Modern designed/made IC Piston engines. Woodgases or charcoal gasses fueled; and finally: true personal freedom closed loop.

Why I see pellettizes fuels of any types as just another everyman enslaving chain. Again.
I feel the same about exotic felt-need rare metals catalysts to “best” wood-for-power. Refractory metals needs. Cheap NOT!, outside sourced “needs” like limestone (for AG slag gasification reduction).
I feel the same enslaving chains in felt-needed digital “must-have” finite controls.
None of these are actually needed to make shaft power from wood.

Says, you a.h., SteveU, know-it-all?!
Nope> Dutch John’s works. Doug Williams works. WK’s works. Want more names?
Names without Designers and Doctorate arrogance’s?
Names without Artistic, show-all-my-inspired-greatness desires?

Simple closed system loop.
Let the trees/brush grow. Harvest a bit. Chunk it up. Simple gasify those chunks to fuel power that off-the shelf shaft power engine for your own, real-needs purposes.
FUN is hearing the engine make power with the fuel you made, for your purposes.

All else is just cultures show off grand standing. Entertaining. To those who refuse to do anything real, but expect never ending entertainments delivered to them. An old, old story. The Epic Hero’s. Stupid. One shots. One-shots do not keep thing going forward. Vain. Short lifers.
Real hero’s in life are the one who keep the lights on, water flowing, foods on the tables, the babies clean and safe.
Unsung heroes, are humble, human, and humane. Not needing, not wanting any name-fame back-pats.

S.U. stepping out a bit from the minion shadows these last 10 years with woodgas

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#44

No GaryT,
too many top-down university types life-long bought-in believing in never-ending Advancements. Abandonment of the concept anything ever just being of good-enough. Now, move onto to the next real problem.
Abandonment of the truism of diminishing returns on efforts expended.
And to keep their ed-u-ma-cated upper-yupper lifestyles financed they had to sell Greener ,and Greener to the sheepish-believers.
40 years of that here PNW and ANY use of ANY carbons bases fuels is now Evil. Lead? The Devil for sure.
No. No. We will all march on to a cleaner brighter future with lithium’s pulling the sleighs. With rare earth super magnets motating us. With finite silicon based digital controls. All of these needed/demanding tech-geeks. “Class” always protects itself. Justifies itself.
Dependencies over-complications shits get stacked higher and higher by this brainiac Class.
An old, old song; until Realities limitations bites down. Then the over-complicated cultures built-up shits, always, all flatten out. Like all shit does as it decays.
Don’t get spattered, man.
And the boy who said, “But! The Emperor has no clothes!” was not rewarded.
S.U. expecting no rewards in this life or the next

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#45

To me that still just sounds like a long way of describing incompetent management with soft hands and no practical knowledge to contribute. That seems to be a fairly constant management story in North America, almost a point of pride that the people with the papers and calling the shots are experts at golf, and nice shoes, and agreeing with each other. It has been studied, they know that most managers are of no value, or actually damaging to their organizations.

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#46

RindertW I have a wee bit more than just a one source experiences with Continuously Variable Transmission drives.
Mt first was with electric motor driven alternator and generator loading test benches. hand cranked mechanical and small electric motor squeezed V-sheaves. Less rpm variable capability than the previous BIG, Heavy, expensive moving brush rack 5 hp variable direct drive variable rpm drive systems. Much less durability.
The snowmobilers I’ve known accepted short-live, high maintenance as the cost for light weight.
Ha! I never snowmobiled. Only over the shoulder watch maintenance/repairs.
My next hands on experiences were with Saturn cars and a few Nissan vehicle models. The Saturn’s all failed. Nissan was picky what they put it in. Wire wrapped elasomer drive belts in the Saturn’s. Made in Hungary, I think. Fiction shoe wedges on a metallic plate link chain in the Nissan’s I think. No failures in those early Rouge’s.
Both required a very special exclusive lube fluid.
That was near 13 years ago. Some manufactures are using a few more CVT’s in horsepower limited applications. Subaru. 100% early failures. Supposed better now. Owner/users will be the ultimate judges.
More manufacturers now using past even 6 speed auto, to 8, 9 and 10 speed autos.
More and more manufacturer using multi gear speed dual clutch transmissions. Want new interesting? Read up on these.

Most better-idea system often fail the real-in-this-world in-use durability-use test once in wide deployments.
Better-ideas always have the current-in-use evolved systems proven durability and cost of deployment Challenge hump to climb.
HD trucks still uses a human-man/woman clutching 8-10-12 air shifted speed manual transmissions. For auto bus and medium truck users it is still lockable torque converter 5-6 speed transmissions.

CVT works with limitations.
Just like supercharging and turbo boosting not a cure-all, improve-for-all panacea.

S.U.

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#47

Back in the 70’s I worked on, and drove trailer trucks, the joke about Detroit diesels was you filled them up with oil, and checked the fuel.:grin:

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#48

Interesting and I agree. Years ago I spent a lot of money on a small old, old, old book on how to make your own engine, IC that is. The author explained a number of engines. He also explained his design. If I can get the time I will post his engine.

Solar-Fuel, onward !

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#49

Those are the guys that did not buy a Yamaha.

Turbo worked pretty good, hard to argue with it especially on a diesel.

I like the Nissan with the CVT, takes some getting used to but most people who own them also like them.
You just should not expect to tow a boat with it…

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#50

Freedom is its own reward. Live free or die. May God bless and keep you my brother.
Rindert

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#51

I’ve been holding off getting one of those. I think I’ll hold off a while longer. Thanks Steve.
Rindert

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#52

On the CVT’s . . .
I just been detail reviewing Consumers Reports latest published 2019 Car Guides data sheets.
I will freely admits two things: CU has had mis-steps over the years; why I do NOT monthly subscribe-buy-in, but just buy the individual specialty publications. They DO have the best users-input data base in the world though on Auto’s.
My second admission: I value real world all users long term durability/usability over and above all other idealism/factors.
Subaru for years now is doing a much better overall durabilty for the users versus Honda, Toyota and any others. For a few years now Kia is rising above these too on more and more models. Mazda has come way up too.
Subaru is now using a lot of CVT’s across the board, along with many of the low/mid powered Nissan’s and Toyota/Honda in more and more applications.
Personally I think boxer engines are poor packaging envelope in four wheeled Auto’s . . . but just fine in light aircraft. But hard to dispute what Subaru has now been doing for their Auto users. I will be seat bouncing & hood popping the newest, finally larger 3 row seat model. M-a-y-b-e finally one that will fit my big ass and legs and wider shoulders.
One thing did stand out in CU’s roadtest comments of most all of these vehicle CVT’s: louder than expected engine roar/RPM on hard acceleration. CVT’s have narrower overall ratio range capability than the newer 8-9-10 multispeed automatic transmissions.

And I do think turbo charger are just fine, dandy, and well needed on diesel engines. The complex multi-chained carbons in diesel type fuels can use all of the extra oxygen molecules you can force in.
Turbos in gasoline auto applications versus high altitude light aircraft. Affectations: versus just putting in a larger torque’ier NA engine. Now that the Euro-led-way is to insist on carbons emitted grams per kg published specs the Auto manufactures have to cater to that single spec to be able to sell into those markets.
Glad I am an American and for most application I can still insist on NA for our auto’s and be able to use regular oils.
But that’s me. I can always handily beat 90% of the auto users by at last 15% to 30% in fuel usage just by dedicated driving for it. And still get around in the same time with 15-30% less transmission and brakes wears.

All engine systems; any power system; the operator makes more a difference than any 15-30% better design idealizing of any type.
You decades equipment operators know this well. Not unique just to me.
The dumb asses, ham-handed, heavy-footed, wearing out breaking equipment gets pulled off to do grunt and shovel work.
Auto’s the dumb-asses blame the manufactures, never them selves.

S.U.

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#53

There are always places to improve.

I for one am excited at the idea of a 3 cylinder OP diesel for small trucks.
The reason is it eliminates so many moving parts.
match this with a 10 speed transmission ( or even a 6 speed stick in my hand would be very nice in a mid sized truck.
Make the engine a bit smaller at 1.5 litre that’s all I need.

I still really like that Sterling in the dodge truck.
WHAT IF it was a hybrid drive, you know one of those drive a few miles on battery before the engine starts?
That would be perfect.
And burn any kind of fuel,. can you imagine a DOW conversion on that?

1 Like
#54

Hi Steve, bought my wife 2015 Escape 4x4 1.6 ecoboost 20k miles. Wasn’t sure about it, but I am very impressed. How the get all that power out of that small of an engine, and 28mpg average is amazing. I kept her old escape, 06 2.2L 4x4 with over 170k no problems yet. When I changed brake pads about a month ago, check records they had over 100k miles on them. I must have done well teaching her how to drive.:smirk:

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#55

10 STRANGEST ENGINES . . . . I have owned and used two of these.
Plus two not listed:
a German/Ford V-4 in a Saab 96 - it worked fine - odd firing sequence took getting used to
an IHC half-an-eight, four cylinder - a marketing move. Ha! Still a gas hog with less power then - use the smooth strong V-8 with less foot stuffing.
S.U.

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#56

I Really like the idea of keeping the piston travel speed down when still having a long stroke.
3 cylinder two strokes are perfectly balanced

There have been attempts in the past and failures.
I think if Chrysler had not gotten into trouble things might be different today.

Notice this thing is not vibrating or dancing around?

What pisses me off about buying a light truck today is shelling out in excess of 40,000 dollars more than anything else.
All I want is a plane simple truck with an electric/IC hybrid drive.
Maybe the tide is turning, but the prices are insane!!!

And what about a free piston uniflow OP engine?
A leap frog moment for hybrid drive.

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#57

Yes. I have seen this free-piston electricity maker engine.
Earlier BMW was trial engineering an on-board electricity maker from hot flowing engine exhaust stream. Intriguing concept. All water cooled vehicle system adversely do this electrical potential making too. Use the movement-flows energy just being blown out the tailpipe for a work-purpose instead.

But back to my insistence of always looking at the usability of the whole system in real-world usages by broad user bases . . .
The direct IC engine to drive train coupled Hybrids have real advantages. Dual use power driving capability in an Auto!
Most all of these you can independent drive for a while on just the battery bank and electric traction motor.
Most of these you can drive on just the coupled IC engine.
Now that is a real world usage advantage over a de-coupled system.
That’s what I’d want.
Flying over water the safety insistence is to have a multi-engine passenger carrying aircraft for REASONS. Small boat safety is to have a secondary “trolling” motor in addition to the main motor.
Road use we used to just say you’d engine/tranny power-crapped-out just coast safely to the shoulder. Then repair. Flag down a ride. Or walk home.
In America anymore just like has been true always in many parts of the world You Do Not Want To Become road-bait. Mostly here where I live as a larger than average guy, the real danger is not Predators. Distracted/inattentive/lead-footing other drivers is.

I insist my engine systems MUST be rock solid durable/dependable first and foremost.
Efficiency-manic-ing is dangerous, and will get you injured and killed sooner-or-later.
WHY I Finally gave up road bicycling. I had too many actual got-hits; had to ditch-dive-to-live. Saw too many peers hit-killed, injured for life.
Gave up on road motorcycling too. My long distance truck driver Father did prove right on that.
A killed dead person gets zero MPG. Zero claims to any Efficiency Fame. Just an obituary in the newspaper.
The engine/power making system must keep you safe, fail-safe, not hazard endanger the users.
S.U.

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#58

I follow the logic, but tires fail with a much higher frequency than motors. You’re just as dead if pasted while changing a tire roadside.

Supposing that the electric drive system is well designed and proved, it should outperform the reliability of a mechanical driveline.

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#59

There are always ideas out there some will work some will not.
Ford Nucleon…
What could go wrong HA HA…

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#60

You are right.
I have actual wrench time on electric trucks and they could be very reliable if people cared enough to change their driving a little.
No smoke, no noise, and smooth power.

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