David, I’m in a similar circumstance as you, building an off-grid house with solar and batteries, and woodgas for a backup. I’m going to recommend long-term that you build either the Ben Peterson gasifier, or the Wayne Keith gasifier, sized for a 3 or 4 liter engine, similar size to a truck. Run the generator, make enough power to recharge quickly, then shut down the gasifier. One or two hopper loads should get you through a cloudy day. Do not plan to run the generator continuously, the gasifier will get clogged, and you should plan downtime to clean out ashes, etc. 4-6 hours and then shut it down.
My personal plan is to convert a gasoline tractor to woodgas, then use that to run a PTO generator. Then when I don’t need batteries charged the tractor can be used elsewhere. In the USA, we have an abundance of old gas tractors that nobody wants.
As far as the charcoal, I have no opinion either way. It could be a useful tool to learn. But making charcoal is a process on its own that you will need to master, and you will lose at least 50% of the fuel value making it. If you have a use for the heat, OK. If it’s just temporary to learn about woodgas, OK. If you are ready to dive in 100%, I think I would just build the wood gasifier and learn to operate it. We can help with that.
Yes DavidP. 2-4 hours a day; twice a day are the batch production cycles that has made the most difference for the sucessful wood-for-electricty for the daily needs folks.
A larger system. Brought up quick to operation and kept at efficient operation. As much of the total energy released direct used as in daily scheduled laundry; family showering; large meals cooking. And as much as possible the rest stored as thermal and chemical. Your capabilities.
So a large multi-cylinder internal combustion engine. 1000cc minimum to a larger four cylinder.
To get a raw wood system to self feed for 2-4 hours; wood drying and best chunk sizing will be critical. Longer than 4 hour and the “make the hopper as large as you like” approach, will bite you in the ass at last four different ways.
Not so hard getting the just-in-time dried down, and even pre-warmed wood IF you put the will make reject “waste” heats from all of the systems in a dedicated small enclosure. Not under your house. Not attached to your house.
And when no longer producing gas and therefore power; all of these heated lumps will be bleeding off mass heats. Get creative and put these always wasted to the crows heats to work pre-drying down as-cut; as-picked up future fuel woods. Drying down wood is actually an energy storage in the future usage. You are conserving the woods combusted relased enrgy.
In sixteen years, of thousand of hours pursuing this I have only found and retained four publications and books that a fellow can actually build from:
The authors have done much in their books to explain needed-practices of operations.
Enlarge the picture and you can read the titles/authors and Net look up how to buy these.
Vesa Mikkononen’s book has detailed blueprints for four different sized, and purposes wood gasifiers. He says his for four cylinder engines system is the one to use for home electrical generators. Still an expensive, complex build.
Wayne Kieth’s system you’d commute vehicle travel then once home fuel your stationary generator for your 2-4 hours. Not a quick and easy system to build. But the one best able to handle really, really wet wood in humid conditions.
Ben Petersons book system is the more reasonable one to build up and use. He designed and sold for years much more elaborate, complex systems for sale. His book system simplified for building from common tanks. The same base information in all of the three series of books. But each version with expanded out step details for the askers; and more fueling preping information. Automation for the mixer control added in the 2020 version. His in the trunk charcoal Mustang stealth car only in the 2017 version.
Expect some here will trash me as “selling” “shilling” for BenP. about his books.
He; like Dutch John has wearied of the forums social turmoils.
Neither really wanting to be contacted and exposed anymore to the abuses. And in BenP’s case - the intellectual property thefts.
Fight the surf; sure. For the best fish; crawfish; clams and mussels. But know when to leave for the more peace of inland, and the offshore. The surf is a rough and dangerous place to be.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hi Chris, Great, don’t forget to build two and send one to me by mail…
According to the AI, Ben Peterson’s system is designed for smaller pieces of wood than Wayne Keith’s version. Is that correct?
Isn’t Ben Peterson’s more complex to build?
Thanks for the advice.
Nice project, might as well use the equipment for multiple applications.
I also think all that wasted heat is a waste, but for twigs, it’s better to burn them in a bathtub than on a pile. But isn’t burning wood shavings just as efficient?
Steve, thank you for these explanations, always very helpful.
I’d like to use this wasted heat to partially heat the house with a water chiller and a circulator if possible…
Producing electricity is good, but wasting heat it is bad!
It’s true that this method is certainly more complex than an air chiller, but I think it’s worth it.
Drying the wood is just a matter of time and space, and I don’t have too much of a problem with space, I can stock up.
I’m not ruling out the idea of drying some potential wood chip, though, since the shredded branches will be green.
What a coincidence, I’ve already added two of his books to my Amazon cart.
Thank you for confirming that VesaM’s book is less suitable for me; that’s what the AI told me.
I don’t doubt that the book is interesting, but with my basic English, it takes me longer to translate the printed version.
My plan is to combine the BenP and WK systems, as each has its advantages and disadvantages for my use.
It’s probably presumptuous of me, but I think I can manage it because each part is more or less independent.
Then you have to find the desire and the will to succeed.
David, you’re getting a lot of good info and with all the recommended links and stuff, and books on the way, you will have a lot to digest. Unfortunately there’s no way around it - every operator has to bite the bullet and do the learning. In a field with so many variables and “it depends”, only so much information can be transfered between individuals.
A noticed a couple questions with my name on them:
I guess you could say I went out on a few limbs and made three very different gasifiers. If you want, you can search for “Jo’s 8” gasifier", “Jo’s Mazda” and “Jo’s Volvo”.
Just be aware - especially in the first thread, when I was newbie and all hyped about gasification, there may be some theories and guesses that wouldn’t hold in court.
The drier fuel the better. Personally I dry all my fuel as much as possible outdoors in summertime, spread out on a trailer. It’s then stored in paper bags indoors for several months before I use it. The drier the fuel, the more resistant you are to making tary gas. On top of that I use monorator hoppers (most of us do). It squizes out a lot of moisture even from what seems like bone dry fuel.
Other medium sized gasoline tractors done were by Ron Lemler, Indiana USA.
Arvid Olsen, Canada
TerryL Canada?
And Doug Brethowser (sp) Kansas? Nebraska? Wood pellets? Carbonized wood pellets?
Currently J.O. Olsen’s Ferguson.
GoranK’s.
Others I am sure to forget. Apologies.
Medium diesels tractors converted done by JohanL. in Sweden. A three cylinder David-Brown.
And now Mr Tone here current on the DOW.
These on raw wood fuels.
ALL able to PTO generator drive for electricity.
Our three cylinder 1472cc John-Deere/Yammar diesel. Have to be a rear high mounted system. This was done by a New Zealand vineyard guy. I do not want to lose the front bucket capability. I have a big heavy 10kW four pole MeccAlta generator head set back. Waiting to be driven.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hello,
Thank you very much for your replies.
Indeed, I have a lot of reading to do. Normally, I don’t really enjoy reading, but it’s pleasant here, even if what I’ve read so far is rather vague.
Regarding engines, is it easier to convert a gasoline or diesel engine to run on wood gas?
A comparison between a house’s plumbing system and a gasifier comes to mind:
The charcoal gasifier would be like a valve on the water distribution, and the engine would be the house’s plumbing system. You open the valve, and the water flows into the house.
Whereas wood gas would be more like a well. You have to pump the water, filter it, remove the acidity or limescale, and then you can send it into the house via a valve.
Does this comparison hold water? (in broad strokes)
Gasoline - definately. First of all, a diesel doesn’t have an ignition system (spark plugs). Also, on a diesel the compression has to be lowered.
About your comparison:
With charcoal, filtering is equally important. If not even more important, since dust in unfiltered charcoal gas is said to be more abrasive to the engine.
Charcoal is safer when it comes to making tary gas but you may have to add water or steam to get the performance a wood gasifier can offer. Other than that there’s very little difference (at least from what I understand. I’ve never operated a charcoal machine)
Ah yes, that’s right, you have to filter the charcoal dust, and you also have to add water, and that might be the problem for me.
It naturally depends on the amount of water, but to add water I need a pump, which will use electricity. I could also create a conveyance system, which would require a huge amount of work, even if I had a tracked excavator (so no).
If the quantity is limited and I can store the water in a tank, why not, but I have to take the pump’s power consumption into account.
I’m reading more and more of the topics that have been recommended to me, but I get the impression that some sections are missing. I suppose those sections are reserved for premium members.
In short, I’m learning a lot, but nothing concrete yet.
Well its not so simple neither with the charcoal. To get the full potential of charcoal, the gasifier too becomes similar to a wood gasifier. And all the side machinery like filters, coolers etc also.
The nice thing about charcoal thugh is it can also be gasified real easy, cheap and safe in a simplest setup. Will that setup be powerfull and efficiant? No. But it will work and teach a beginer a lot.
In its core, a wood gasifier and a charcoal gasifier are the same thing. They both run on charcoal in its core. Only difference is a wood gasifier makes its own charcoal from raw wood.
I dont know how good you are with chemistry, but a simple description is this.
Glowing hot carbon (charcoal) realy wishes to bond to oxigen. So much so that it will rip it off anything, even H2O and CO2. Whats left is a mix of Hydrogen and Carbon monoxide, both flamable gases. Thats gasification in a nutshell.
Since raw wood always has more H2O thain the gasicier can convert to Hydrogen, raw wood gasifiers need to be made to deal with this problem.
Charcoal on the other hand has litle to no H2O, so burning pure charcoal in a gasifier will only produce CO and no Hydrogen. Wich is still burnable, but less potent. A tiny bit of water is thus added to a charcoal gasifier to fix this. And its nowhere near the amount you seem to think it is, its about 15%. And this also doesent mean aditional plumbing or pumps etc (althugh some people do decide to go this route), its enaugh to just wet your charcoal fuel slightly.
Or, like l mentioned a few posts back, you burn a mix of charcoal and wood. That way your gasifier, filtration and cooling become way easyer compared to a 100% raw wood gasifier plus some other benefits.
But again. Each situation is specific and even this setup can make more or less sense in some scenario
Good early morning for me DavidP.
Good early afternoon for you.
A good shortcut way to begin to understand woodgasification for IC engine fueling is to go visit someone already doing it.
I re-read this whole topic stream now since the DOW site system was auto-advising me I had been posting too much and I should just PM message you instead. Naw.
Ha! What you have brought to the DOW is the interest and excitements of a new person inquiring. Thanks. Exciting for us.
Re-reading I see Peter Anto @Panto1 texted to you in French.
If French is your Belgium milk-tongue then member Francois Pal @f_pal would be the closest to you.
But if Dutch is your Belgium milk-tongue then (now that we know DJ is alive and kicking) Dutch John @Dutch_John would be closest to you.
Just posting up their name-link here sent them by their e-mails notification they were being referred to here on the DOW.
You linking on these, opens up a box with a Personal Message button you can attempt to contact them at.
Best to double click on their avatar picture there first; and read their on-DOW activity posts to get a sense of each man.
I have visited more active woodgasers than most, by following some simple rules.
Everyone values their privacy. Survivalists and Preppers who make up the bulk of the active wood gassers (10 for every I, who openly on-Net talks about it) demand this.
So no camara’s. No cell phone cameras. Don’t even have a pocketed smartphone. Paper note books O.K. Guesstimated measurements O.K. Actual calipers and measuring tapes not O.K.
Bring food gifts. Not alcohol.
Hi Kristijan, Great, thank you so much for the explanations. I’m not a chemist, but I understand the principle.
After thinking about charcoal gas and wood gas, the final system will either be wood-based or a mixture, but charcoal alone isn’t suitable for me for several reasons.
I’m not ruling out the possibility of having to practice with it, but I’ll try to avoid it because, as I’ve already mentioned, I have enough decorations in my cellar and garden.
My native language is French, but François is a 10-hour drive from me… unless my girlfriend decides to go on holiday to the south of France, I won’t have the chance to go there.
The Netherlands is much closer, but there’s the language barrier, and I must say that unfortunately, Dutch is a foreign language to me.
Thanks for bringing up the privacy issue. I was hoping to get my host drunk on Belgian beer and leave with his gas generator, but no such luck. I could always give him indigestion with fries or Belgian chocolate; he’ll have a harder time catching me then… (I’m joking, of course, don’t take my slightly sharp humor the wrong way).
My Fathers late in life second wife was a gal from Belgium. She wanted to become American. Their daughter, my third sister, in her early 20’s visiting, fell in love with a Belgium man. Married. Two children. She wanted to become European. Had to learn both Dutch and French to get her nursing degree. Now a soccer-mom and teaching at the University.
Visiting, I came to love Trappist beer for bicycling hydrating. Drank warm.
Came to love street vendor “Fritten 'et Mayonaise” (sp?). Good for a border to border bicycling day trip blast. Touch Germany and France. Touch Nederland’s too for a four country same-day touch.
Belgium chocolates are some of the best. Not good bicycling food though. Drops you at 45 minutes.
The first woodgas/engine system I saw was in 1977 in the back of an old pub/cafe on the way to up into the Ardennes. From the WWII or earlier era. It took me 30 years to get around to it myself. I wasted too much time pursuing woo-woo’s, and heart loves lost. A couple of career’s got in the way too.
S.U.
You could say the world is small, but for me, a homebody, it’s still very big.
To cool off, drink a warm Trappist beer while cycling; I imagine the distance must have been longer after the refreshment (from all the wobbling).
It’s quite a ride, but here we don’t have the same concept of distance because everything is close.
I appreciate that you enjoy local food; many Belgians are very fond of it.
Life’s trials build character and help us move forward. Perhaps that’s what led you to make gasification your passion.
For me, it’s just one activity among many. What I’m passionate about is simply keeping my hands and mind busy, but for a useful purpose.
For example: insulating the house, installing home automation, creating everyday objects with my 3D printers, developing programs to simplify certain tasks… And if I don’t abandon the idea, the gasifier will become part of my passion, just like everything else.
Here DavidP is an independent system built obviously from the 1st addition of Ben Pertersons book. No I do not know this person.
He compensated for the undersized recommended engine generator by using a very large suction blower system to first get the gasifier reactor flow sucked up hot and working.
To me he obviously did read the pages in that book on best operator practices. AND engine conversions.
I have others who did follow Ben’s book, I can show.
Now here is a very, very capable family made the virtually same gasifer and just could never get their engine generator to run and produce adequately, reliably.
In their first building video their construction was excellent.
Flares great. Flares do not run engines for loaded power.
The problems then? They were building from a different supplied book by a fellow who stole BenP’s design. Then so called improved it. Hanging his own name on the system.
He could never get his first by Ben’s book system he built up to flare for him. So then he had to “improve” the design. Write up, publish, and sell his own construction manual. Sell CNC parts kits.
But he never, ever did show it loaded engine running. So any buying and building his system did not have the best practices initial set up, and operating instructions. Had no written experienced learned, trouble shooting instructions. Had no live by camera other-the-shoulders help.
Crying shame to listen to for those of us experienced.
You will not be able to read through the hundreds of in-English comments below this video.
Matt Ryder and I did try in the comments to help them out. But how could they ever know of the too many inexperienced commenters who was giving valid experienced advices?
On the DOW we do not care so much what a fellow does build up. Just that something does get built. Then loaded engine ran.
We can step by step sort a person out within the limitations of what they did build. Want/need better results? Then they will listen to rebuilding advices. Or set aside and make up a better system for their needs.
-Figure out what wood you have in volume.
-Figure out how you intend to make that fuel consistent sized.
-Figure what engine you are going to run.
Then your gasifier ends up to be designed/sized around those parameters.
Wayne has a sawmill so he has endless supply of wood chunks made from slabs. You may not have a tractor to run a big chunker like he has either. Other people have different circumstances.
However, there are a lot of thing in common with wood and char, and small and large engines.
Thus I suggest reading wayne’s book.
With charcoal you are charring the wood first, then sizing it. and it breaks apart easier, you get the tar out, the gasifier is simpler. You may find other uses for char.
With wood, you processing it usually with larger machines, and the gasifier is a little more complicated because you didn’t get the tar out.
There is no wrong choice. It depends on what you have and what you are willing to invest.
I think Ben Peterson’s model is very well designed (from what I understand). The only slight problem is that I’d like to cool it with water. But perhaps the heat output will be too low? Any ideas?
I’m receiving Ben’s book on Monday. Because even if I don’t design the gasifier, or if I don’t build it completely, I’ll certainly get crucial information about them.
And maybe I’ll even be able to draw up the plans (oh yes, I’m pretty much proficient with CAD software).
This is only my personal opinion, but the heat you will be able to recover isn’t worth the effort. I’m sure it’s doable to, via heat exchangers, pipe in the waste heat from both the engine’s coolant and the gasifier’s gas cooler, but it won’t justify the complexity. Especially since you already heat with firewood and with your stated 1000 kWh electrical replacement a year, saving a log or two a week during winter won’t help your heating needs enough to be noticed. On an industrial scale, running 24/7, is another story.
BUT - the day you find yourself produce electricity and run out of chores, you can always add the capabilty if you still feel like it.
That’s precisely why this post was created, so I could get a referral to access the premium account and purchase the book.
Living in Europe, there’s a VAT issue, but if someone buys it for me and gives it to me as a gift, that works.
The amount will, of course, be reimbursed; I have no other way to get the book or the account.
And if you’re willing to help me, I can assure you that the amount will be paid to you. Furthermore, there’s still a promotion on the premium account until February 1st (with the promo code: FORUM30).
Unfortunately, I can only offer you my word as proof…
