Chris, thanks, didn’t had that one yet.
I wil try to ad my analyses and pics ( my way charcoal making versus normal style) today in a different topic, but reading this article helps a lot.
Hi Koen,
Welcome to the site and thank you for posting this picture. Sometimes the old ways have some insightful information. I am referring specifically to the cooler pictured here. I just finished a tall cooler with a rather more complex condensate capture and drain system. I wish I could have seen this photo a month ago, lol, could have saved myself a whole lot of work! A missed “KISS” moment. I see now the wisdom of the “automatic” draining through the simple s-trap arrangement which keeps the liquid level above the separation plates thus allowing a linear flow of the gas for a more efficient condensing and cooling. A transparent s-trap would be interesting. I will definitely use this concept in my next cooler.
If you go to Forums, Small Engine Users Corner, “My first small engine run”, you will see how complex I made this chore, It’s OK to chuckle as long as I can’t hear it half way around the world. lol,
Pepe
Your pictures are showing a lot of work you did Pepe.
I will make a understandable scetch from the old picture i posted earlier, might help others to.
It is impressing dough how much we can learn from old style isn’t it ?
I have found an interesting book on the internet
Not bad at all.
This book gives a real insight about the proporties of producer gas, how to modify the proporties and the outcome from changes made.
Everything you ever wanted to learn about producer gas 
Here is an study from India, with well explained , the benefits from Hydrogen enriched producer gas / flame velocity
Thank You for this KoenVK
This is new to me. Too long of down load for me, I will have to read this online - much time at 42kps. Be a few days to digest this and be able to comment.
Try the PDF link here also to Tylers 1906-07 treatise on “Producer Gas and Gas Producers” here on the DOW.
Here is the direct link to the primary India researchers:
http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/
Much, much to see, learn and read here.
1kw table topped systems to hundred thousand kW open core systems pictured and described in detail.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Steve, they also have the e-book version, maybe use that one
Steve, thanks for the hints, very helpful
Playing with gas power calculations:
I ad the same content here coz the relevancy with this topic.
My opinion on what i consider to be the most effective mixture = 44%Co + 44%H2 +2%CH4
Since there is no need to ad extra oxygen in an mixture without adding more fuel… the calculation is roughly as follows:
Mixture requires an amount of oxygen to be completely combusted. (Lamba 1 )
Since i doubled the amount of combustable gasses, i also need to double the amount of oxygen…
This leeds to following calculation:
42 Parts Combustible gas + 58 Parts inert mixed with 21 Parts Oxygen + 79 parts inert = 200 parts, where is 63 parts the energy and 137 parts the inert
90 Parts Combustible gas + 10 Parts inert mixed with 45 parts Oxygen + 169 parts inert = 314 parts, where is 135 parts the energy and 179 Parts the inert.
in perspective: each part of mixture contains in case 1 = 0,315 Energy and in case 2 = 0,429 Energy, an increase of 36,19% !!!
That is food for thoughts
Energy content calculated per part, based on the above:
To make the calculation simple, i use 1cbm per part as standard value
Energy content per cbm: (Kw / Cbm)
Hydrogen: 2,995
Carbon Monoxide: 3,509
Methane: 9,968
First case:
normal producer gas
20% Hydrogen, 20% Carbon monoxide, 2% Methane
200 cbm are containing 150,016 Kw or 0,75 Kw / cbm
Enriched Gas
51% hydrogen, 18% Carbon monoxide, 21% Methane
300 cbm are containing 425,235 Kw or 1,417 Kw /cbm
so thats almost double the power ?
My earlier post calculated the oxygen part into the parts containing energy, which was ok to make a compare with other postings, but not gave the real energy value.
It shows clearly that depending the contents of the gas, you get a much better power factor.
@Steve: you’r very right for the methane
@Wayne: Your gasifier is doing great, compared with “Generator gas” as commonly known ( see my first posts in this topic or search on wikipedia for Generator gas )
Hello KoenVK
Yes my points have been that in the total produced gasses percentages; an increase of every 1% block of thermal produced methane fuel gas will be worth the same as every 3% blocks of gain in hydrogen or every ~2% blocks of gain in carbon monoxide fuel gases. Takes 3X the hydrogen or 2X the carbon monoxide to equal useable energy in a one measure increase in the internally produced methane.
So why all of this silliness about increasing Hydrogen rampant on the Internet?? Whole old producer gas publications now reprinted with new covers and titles as Hydrogen Fuels. Mostly because Hydrogen has become fashionable tagged as the “Clean” “Future fuel”. Seductive “can be made from common water”. The more energy dense Carbons now demonized as “black”, “dirty”, “polluting”, “Going to kill us all with planet overheating!!” Hurrump.
Truth is hydrogen in the real energy density woosie (weak and meek) fuel. The Hindenberg did not explode. It totally hydrogen gas burnt out in less than 90 seconds from one end to the other. The remaining fires were solids buring then. People were flash burnt and fallen, crushed injured and killed. Many more survived than died. Now light off the same volumn in methane, propane gases and especially vaporized gasoline and you WILL get an explosion! Followed by a much longer hot fueled burn. Almost every jet liner crash. Grains and fossil coal dust lite-offs do this same over pressure exploding. People then die from pressure wave shock in addition to flash burns. Carbon Monoxide I suspect would be somewhere in between these in the energy speed of release. I’ve never been able to find any good reports on old town gas plants “incidents”.
In a charcoal gasifier the nice thing about steam injection is not so much the hydrogen produced but the benefits of nozzle cooling and internal oxegen producton allowing as you say less air in needed with less than nitrogen carry-trough.
Better overall benefits from proven IC engine exhaust injection into charcoal gasifers. Good IC engine exhaust will have much full combustion produced still hot phased changed water vapor in it. And a poor combustion IC engine exhaust still cools and now recycles the original HC fuels back through for another go around.
I refrained from saying this on the “Nitrogen is Not the Problem”.
Some nitrogen is Good for the best IC engine power on gasoline and diesel fuels.
Some nitrogen is GOOD to make woodgas/charcoal gas real world usable for IC engine converting into shaft power.
The only true real measure in my opinion to keep all of this real and usable is measured in usable shaft power results.
To me that means internal combustion piston engines as I insist anymore only living in the practical of what is in place useable today. Although these are classed as heat engines it is actually the expanding internal gases that make them work. Heat = pressure. Pressure = heat. Heat/Pressure makes power for work
Past a certain point the hotter, the quicker, the faster you make your in the cylinder energy release the more difficult it is to convert into mechanical shaft power. Some nitrogen and even carbon dioxide in the cylinder helps by modrating the denser fuels rates of heat energy release and act as heat energy absorption working expansion gases to lengthen the duration time of the push on the pistion for more degrees of crankshaft conversion. Inducted in water humidity and in cylinder combution produce water vapor both act as expansion gases also. The Inducted though as un-phase changed can kill the power by absorbing too much heat, weakening the pressure/time rise curve.
Putting this in terms of produceable shaft power is on theme for this Drive/Power on Wood site. Why I state it this way.
No chritism to your way of stating is meant.
The real crying shame is poltically today we must “sell” dense carbon fuels as better. The true Diamonds in the rough? Artists wonderful charcoals able to bring life and hope in black and white?
And any talk of methane get politically trashed now as, “20 times more global warming than even CO2!!” Carbon dioxide as plant food is GOOD. Without this they will die. Without them we die.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hi Steve,
You have a good point there, but i only started this topic to create understanding for the content of the gas.
I not debate about which gas mix is the best but just point the “theoretical values” to have a point of reference.
The words i use are chosen based on common knowledge, used by a lot of critics, people who are opposed against any one who’s standing up for free energy.
You will rarely see me using CH4, CO, CO2 but more Methane, Carbon monoxide, Carbon dioxide… just to keep it simple
Now understanding that using wood gas is not difficult and even world records can be set ( despite some critics ) and also can be proven that wood gas is more efficient then gasoline, would encourage the doubtful minds to reconsider.
You amongst the other here on DOW know that wood gas is useable and not overcomplicated.
Common people need more understanding, encouragement before they can erase the dilemma in their heads ( wood gas is so weak ).
I would like to refer to a document available here on DOW, “Development of Producer gas Engines” record168.pdf
From the Indian researcher Mukunda.
This man proofs the point with tests conducted and explained in simple words.
He also gives sufficient feedback to us, Diy people, to proceed and not to give up.
Sure word to read it.
The whole point of this topic is exactly about bringing the power to the crankshaft.
knowing how much power i have, what influence i can take on the gas quality and what engine modifications would be preferable.
I will put it in the perspective of 2 projects i am working on here in Thailand and will start another Topic about these projects.
more about the goal of these projects is to find on my website www.renewableenergythailand.com
The website started with one of my friends, who is a real Internet-marketier-specialist, who pointed out the importance of positively using internet
To reach the people you need to be reachable he said, so renewableenergythailand is based on web marketing strategy and combined with some knowledge/experience i have about renewable energy and gasification.
So feel free to contribute your experiences to these projects, they are non-profit based. just generating awareness about gasification and the economical benefits for the rural farmers.
One project is “farmer style” gasifier to drive small piston engines ( most Honda cx types 160/300 cc) for irrigation and electrical power.
Second project is “community Electrical power generation for sell to the grid” ( benefits the local community by receiving subventions per green Kw sold to the grid )
Each project needs 2 x 100 Kwh continues power, 24/7, 365d/y, efficiency 70%
Third project is mobile gasification
To know what we need we have to study and to compare ?
So help me out to find the best answer/solution, making it a “farmers for farmers” concept and i would be honored to discuss with you about what we really need.
Efficient gasification that works.
Regards
Koen
Hello KoenVK
In theme with your goals I have gone back and editied my last post to the terms you wish to use.
Please do be aware we live still in a big world with many culture sub-divisions and what will be better to say in one place will be incite-ful to say in another even though the thermalchemical science is the same.
Example: carbon monoxide. Much safer and productive to say CO in the U.S. and most of northern Europe. Every possible fireman and safety persons are now trained that “carbon monoxide” are people killing poisons to be detected, avoided and source eliminated. One U.S. Premium side driving member related a story of having to leave a demontrastion and actually hide in a toilet because an over-concerned town fireman was tring to track him down as an intentional carbon monoxide producer in public places. This member now calls this fuel gas componet carbonic acid? gas? now in his demontrations in his own home state.
Now for me in my state; rental of ANY housing it is manditory for the owner to install and maintain multiple CO carbon monixide detector alarms. Big, big Fine with jail time possible for flounting this very strickly enforced law.
In the two states Urban core areas nearest to me best to not talk or demonstrate woodgasification or charcoal gasification except in obscere terms no matter how “Green” you may present it. The “treehuggers” will get you for killing sacred trees unless you prove the woodfuel comes ONLY from Urban wastes sources. And the clean-nick, germ phobic for not using suppoled, sanitized, regulated “better, clean, green Natural Gas” with the “clean burning blue flame”.
On the Honda GX systems if you bypass dual gasoline fueling and do not in flow restrict through the original gasoline carburetor venturi restiction; modify the ignition timing starting to power running advance curve AND restrict the loaded engine RPM to 2500 to 3000 RPM you can get actual 90% gasoline power equivencies on general quality made woodgas with some gasifer produced methane in it. Charcoal gas? Charcoalgas with steam enhancement? I do not know this from direct expereince. You; or GaryG will be the ones telling us.
You will only get the methane produced gasifier internally in a raw fueled gasifer. This occures in the zone between pyrolisis and oxidization. Refer to that Fracois Pal “Brandt” gasifer infomation I sent to you for possible farmer capable direct AG raw bio-mass fuel/charcoal (from tree woods) hybrid gasifers to bypass the low density AG fuels carbonization and then densifing/pelltization steps.
I hope this helps you.
Regards
Steve Unruh
I can tell you for sure Steve that on charcoal I don’t approach Gas power levels. I have a 6500watt honda clone that on Gasoline I could get about 4500 watts out of; on charcoal over 3000 watts the voltage starts dropping and the engine can’t keep up. Restriction at the carb, internal resistance of the gas generator, weak gas? who knows… as to gas makeup with exhaust injection I know I must be producing some hydrogen. When I disconnect the exhaust line it is condensing out some moisture. that moisture never makes it to the cooler and would condense out in the feed line if it was just passing through so it must be broken down in the gasifier. I wonder if the cooling of the air inlet is due as much to humidity in the exhaust as it is carbon dioxide.
Best regards, David Baillie
Hi Steve,
You’r right about being aware the things you pointed out.
I was using (or am) the easy approach with these words to avoid any typo’s or to avoid any confusion.
Thus using them strictly here amongst us.
Here where i live, North east Thailand, people use Charcoal daily for cooking and a lot of people make it themselves.
(Why use charcoal for cooking ?)
Since producing good wood gas is also based on the understanding and the ability’s of a well trained operator with an good maintained gasifier equipment…
I have chosen charcoal for starters for a few reasons; most of them are political, ecological and economical.
Making charcoal from Green waste ( which is burned otherwise any how) is ecological and also benefits the local community economical.
Political: Thailand is seeking for Fuel import substitution and for increasing employment.
( if you feed the cattle better, then you obtain more milk.) if the people are more capable to consume more (spent more money), your total economy will grow.
How many options are there in the world ? to replace your fuels with a suitable source of fuel ?
Gasification is one possibility…
Back to the topic.
Yes i agree with your visions on eventual modifications from the engines.
Be it foreseen in stage 2. (total conversion) since the farmers tend to use their equipment as economical as possible due to the absence of financial means.
They use to drive their equipment on the lowest rpm as possible.
So first stage (my opinion) only gasifiers which fits to the standard carburetor. ( this is for the standard small engines, not applicable for the producing of electricity stationary)
Gas contents:
I refer here to one of our first conversations, where you asked how i did get these low numbers on generator gas.
This brings me to the reason why i started this topic;
What makes your gas richer ? How to increase Hydrogen ? How to get more Methane? How to take influence ?
The articles from India / Mukunda did help me to understand little more and also the conversations i did read here on this Forum about the Keith gasifier.
As far as i understand gasification…
Important is the feedstock , humidity, consistence, size.
Changing any of these values, will automatically alter the gas proportions.
Humidity is needed for producing hydrogen
Hydrogen will react at high temperatures with Carbon dioxide and convert to methane
The minerals in the feedstock will act as a catalyst to help the conversion to methane (or use a nickel catalyst)
The higher the temperatures in the reduction zone and the thicker the layer of char is,
the better the conversion is done. (the more pure your gas is)
Reducing the amount of Nitrogen into the gasifier by replacing it with either oxygen or dry steam will increase the energy value of the gas produced.
Many parameters can be modified, but they will be only positively working out if you have the proper feedstock as fuel for your gasifier.
If your gasifier works fine with moister level up to 20%, it might perform very bad with 21% ( blunt statement)
If you not take care the proper size of your input fuel, same will happen.
If you have a good gasifier, there are less complications.
Its al a balance act. Moister in, make sure its converted before its in your engine
Even with charcoal for starters its going to be “taking hurdles” to make progress in my projects. ( moister levels vary, volatiles vary, carbon % vary )
@David
Yes your exhaust connection takes influence to the mixture by replacing the air getting in your combustion.
Your temperature of the glowing coal, converts the Carbon dioxide into Carbon monoxide and Oxygen, same goes for the moister content, its converted into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Depending the weather conditions, air humidity, moister of your feedstock, the demand of your IC engine, the process of gasification will fluctuate.
To counter some off the happenings, the advice of Steve have a great importance.
Changing the size of your carburetor is a good place to start. ( i can give more details if you like )
Remember, to get power out of your IC engine, you’ll need to get the fuel in
@Steve again,
I like the fact that i know Wayne’s gasifier is doing well and i enjoy trying to figure out how it can work so well without me knowing his gasifiers details.
If i just copied everything in my life, i would not have knowledge.
Knowledge just from the books is worthless without the experience…
Increasing the amount of Methane with the Sabatier Reaction
i have also another case study from dutch university, stating that minerals from the biomass act as catalyst…
this process takes also place ( be it in a small scale ) in a downdraft gasifier, the moment the gas leaves the charred bed
Here the link to the study from the university Twente Netherlands about the Methane
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4CL3bqit0oseFB6bkV0THZFUUE/edit?usp=sharing
A good document about gas in the modern portable gas producer, read carefull the chapter about the water.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4CL3bqit0osVzlJSTA4ZzdmVTQ/edit?usp=sharing
And part 2 about the modern portable gas producer
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4CL3bqit0osRkM0elFLTkRUczA/edit?usp=sharing
The effect of hydrogen content
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4CL3bqit0osTW1Ja0RibmFCVm8/edit?usp=sharing