Why an IC piston engine will Always beat out ANY external combustion system

There is a Bessemer 25 HP engine in the hills of PA that has been in operation since 1899 with out shut down. it was brought in by mule in 1889, ran 10 years before the hot tube blew out. The owner pit in a section of black pipe with a cap on it, and the engine has ran ever since. Fills the oilers once a week, collects 6 barrels of oil a day. I have heard several people want that engine, one even offered to replace the entire pump outfit with a brand new one - no deal! If kept oiled, they probably will run nearly forever. I last heard of it about 4 years ago, at the Jacktown show.

The NJAE&MCā€™s 20 HP Oil City/South Penn was used continuously as a gas engine/oil well pump power source, from around 1899 to 1979 - an 80 year run without shut down. It drilled 5 wells and pumped for 10 years as a steam engine before conversion to NG from the well head. It was shut down due to low oil prices. It was replaced when oil prices went up, and it became profitable to re-power the leases. If you have the gas supply, an oil field engine probably would make a great generator power unit, if governed correctly. Not too sure about energy efficiency, unless you have a free gas source!
Had a friend in the oil fields when he was a kid who told me he saw a 20hp. oilfield engine run for 7 years with out ever being shut down. He said they even changed the oil in it while it was running. They would take the new oil and dump it in the top and open a plug in the bottom, and when they saw new oil coming out, they shut it off, and went down to the next engine. The oilers for the rest of the engine were filled every day.

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For the cost of one of these engines you could buy several hundered IC engines with the same power output. unless you want it to operate continuous, 24 hour-per-day basis for periods of up to 20 years with virtually no maintenance or repairs.
Ormatā€™s core technology is the Ormat Energy Converter (OEC) power generation unit. It converts low and medium temperature heat into electrical energy, with low or zero emission of CO2 and pollutants. The OECā€™s main components are a vaporizer/preheater, turbo-generator, air-cooled or water-cooled condenser, feed pump and controls. Ormat has installed more than 900 MW of geothermal and recovered energy generation (REG) power units, based on OEC technology.[citation needed]

Ormatā€™s technology is optimized for use in geothermal energy generation, and the company is the third largest geothermal producer in the United States. The technology is also suitable for recovered energy power generation, which converts waste heat from industrial processes into electricity that can be used on site or sold to power generation utilities. Ormatā€™s recovered energy technology was deployed in projects in Germany, Canada, India, USA and Japan.[citation needed]
This Energy Converter, a closed cycle vapor turbogenerator, is a fully integrated, tested and certified power system developed for remote unattended applications. It consists of a combustion system, a vapor generator, a turbo-alternator, an air-cooled condenser, a recifier, alarms and controls housed in a shelter. It is designed to supply 200 to 3,000 Watt of filtered DC power on a continuous, 24 hour-per-day basis for periods of up to 20 years with virtually no maintenance or repairs.
The concept utilizes a hermetically sealed Rankine cycle generating set that contains only one smoothly rotating part ā€“ the shaft on which the turbine wheel and the brushless alternator rotor mounted. The turbo-alternator shaft is supported by working fluid film bearings, which eliminate metal-to-metal contact. It can also be run with different heat sources since the fluid cycle is closed and requires only the application of external heat. For continuous maintenance free applications, natural gas is typically chosen. For onshore applications, other fuels such as liquefied petroleum gas, kerosene, jet and diesel fuel are commonly used.

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Yep. Running engine oil changes were done/still done in the far-North truck&equipmentā€™s engines too. A measured 40-44 quarts out - while a metered 40-44-56-64 quarts are pumped into the top end.

Remember fellows I only care about what IS/can-be implemented by an individual for his/her/their personal power needs.
This has always been my life. This has always been my working.
Use the best of yesterdays widely distributed broadly IMPLEMENTED power-makers Today. Repaired back to usable working for real folks.
Once I set aside believing in break-through battery tech; a genuis engine; alien-save-us-tech-transfer gifts; magic energy stones it all goes back to so simple.
We use round bored cylinders for important long life, broad fuel usage capability Reasons!
We use crankshafts with connecting rods because All else tried would not live the lifeā€™s for long term practical usages.
We evolved to totally enclosing all of the moving parts for the very practical reasons to keep the wearing dirtā€™s, dust and air humidity OUT. And the then, controlled, captured, filterable, recycled lubrication In.

Yep. Road use tires. The most important component on the whole vehicle. It is the only power/safety connection for the vehicle to connect to the earth.
Why I insist on as close to 100% reliability in the tires that I use.
Screw Firestone brand. Too many across the decades failures. Bridgestone once they got control should have folded up that name relegated it to the dustbin of history.
The most excellent Michelin GreenX tires that did get 90K miles wear and good fuel economy that came on the wifies 2014 Ford Edge will not be replaced with the same next spring. Too damn many tread puncture slow leaks squeezing out that last 30,000 mile of usage. And they still have legal tread depth left. Nope. 65 series LTX light truck Michelinā€™s will go on instead of those harsher riding 60 series tread-puncture magnet GreenXā€™s. The 65 series 10mm narrower Nokian G7ā€™s studded have proven to take the sharp jarring on potholes roads out of the ride. So onto tougher sidewalled and treaded light truck tires.
So what if a slight decrease in published ā€œrolling-resistanceā€ and tread-use life, eh?
Safety of uses, First.
My personal owned 2wd trucks and 4x4ā€™s I only buy and install B.F. Goodrich Baha model of tires for decades. Triple corded sidewalls. Five layers in the tread. No more tread punctures then. No more sidewalls bumped, cord bulges. 75 series profiles.
Have these micro-slitted-sipped across the tread blocks, and they then work fine in the rains and snow/ice.

Same-same always.
Edge of Tomorrow possibilities in anything seeking the ultimate performances in any single factor will compromise safety, life-use, cost-of-use, and reliability.

I only trust and will use if at all possible a technology that has at least 10 years in widespread, worldwide all-seasons deployments. Proven evolved durability and safety.
Iā€™ve had a lithium battery cell phone over heat and get pocket very scary. 2003. A Samsung. I insisted on either a Nokia or Motorola replacement. My current is an LG.
My current in-use AA, AAA, and D cell rechargeable are all Nickel Metal Haldides. Panasonic brand is proving to be the best here.
Why I would love to have a 2nd Gen Toyota Prius. NiMhd battery pack. 10+ year in service proven worldwide deployment.
A Chevy Volt/Bolt? No. A Lion.
A Tesla? No. Super duper Lion. Seen the crash&burn furiously, video?

I refuse (taught well now by Bill Gates and Company) to never be a suckered-in, continuously paying-in, Beta Tester/involuntary-developer ā€œinvestorā€ to Any One.
You all should make this swearing-off personal pledge too.
You will save tons of money.
Be safer. Saner. Much more relaxed. Much less frustrated.

The true future in personal shaft energy power making is in the original engineering by the mainline IC engine manufacturers.
Buy into that. Then cut the dependencies by DIY wood/charcoal fueling that.
Want less buy-in costs?
Buy three identical of the 100ā€™s of thousands they pump out every year of Made-In-China copy-cat versions of these well developed provenā€™s.

Ha! Ha! A line out of a CCR song, "When SomeDay, never comes . . . "
The Day you make Today is real. Let otherā€™s fritter their Lives-away on Otherā€™s, be-better-next-time, Somedayā€™s.

engine mechanic Steve Unruh

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There is a sign on the fridge at 3900 satillite garage that says.

When the water runs out refillā€¦
Some joker struck off refill and scabbed in ā€œweā€™re all going to dieā€¦ā€

And its probably the funniest least funny thing I see on a regular basis.
Because its true.
We are living in an unsustainable way.
We need to except this and believe this and do something about this.
So far no luck on three counts.

Yes I like the old oil field engines and many of the things in this thread.
But I know we need a radical change of mind and purpose or we are all going tooā€¦
Have to refill the fridge, oops option on that is closedā€¦

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I was going to say something about water, but it is too political and regional. Steve is right. Proven technology, and more specifically proven models of that technology are the way to go. Whenever I get the urge to purchase something ā€œnewā€ and ā€œimprovedā€, I remind myself how much time and money I have wasted in my life learning not to do that. I remember how many times I liked the old thing better than the replacement new thing. I would love to get a snowmobile. What is most desirable is an old wide-track Ski-Doo, Rupp, Polaris, Yamaha, John Deereā€¦ you get the idea. Those ultimate fuel mileage competition vehicles (little ones) all seem to be powered with some 4-stroke Honda 50cc or similiar one-lung engine. The Wabash river is high again, we are under (frozen) flood warningsā€¦ :hugs:
P.S. I forgot Mercury and Arctic Cat!

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Now the very nice thing about using ā€˜the Bestā€™ of the previous generation of Tech is by then you can pick and choose out just what has made the all-use, all-year-around Best-for-use proof-cut.

Back in my late teens gone independent years I bought a new-model Hodaka Ace 100cc 2-stroke dual-purpose motorcycle to be my commuter. Great frame and suspension. Weak engine. Reliable, but weak. Too small I said. Next I again bought new-model a Kawasaki 125 rotary valve dual-purpose motorcycle. Great engine. Terrible, too short of wheelbase frame. Weak&stiff suspension. Next motor cycle I stumbled into used cheap. A 500cc Yamaha 2-stroke single. SC? A beast of a machine. I realized the last guy dumped out if it before it killed him from the beastly power band and twitchy transmission. Or . . he in-anger killed it every time a ring jammed up in the extra-large exhaust port.
Ha! Ha! For a good road commuter I really just needed to wait out to see which Yamaha/Kawasaki/Honda 250cc 4-stroke machine was going to proof out.
I was impatient. I was go-smallest possible new (or cheapest used) adventurist. Then.
Much much cheaper learning experiences than hopping from new to next-new automobiles. Searching for the ideal.

Ha! Ha! My 4-year Degreeā€™ed adult niece on her third vehicle and first new car bought a then new model Honda Fit. I told her to quit the used car misery and just buy new four door Honda sedan. I was thinking a Civic. The Fit was just released that year. Unproven. Well. Well proven now. The most reliable usable small hatch back four door sedan out there. 4 years? 5 years? She is bored with it now. Wants, lusts, for a Jeep Wrangler now. Just-Empty-Every-Pocket vehicle for a very non-mechanical girl who must buy all repairs and maintenanceā€™s. No diy costs reductions.
Iā€™ve told her if she must itch-scratch down from 35+ mpg down to under 20 mpg go get a maintenance record proofed Nissan XTerra.

Ha! I confuse many with my perceived brand-hopping. They(her) confuse me with their insistence that there is any true value worth in sorting out collage and professional sport teams. Buy a jersey? Plaster up a support bumper sticker? Fly a Seahawks flag on your front step?
If you canā€™t eat it . . . it will not warm you . . . it will not nurture and support children it has no value to me.
My wifies gifted from me Honda EU2000; and my own Yamaha EF2800I inverter generator can do all of these things.
???
Power to the grow lights in these cold dark months FEEDS you. Power for the cold storage food.
And the 173cc four stroke Yamaha can/will run fine on wood or charcoal gas.
Experienced now . . .
Get a bigger minimum 3000 watt Yamaha or Honda inverter/generator unit. One parallel capable. Want, need more power for intermittent needs?. Then parallel in a second one.
Early deployed, thoroughly 21st Century, now well work-use proven, tech-solution, available now. Use Today.
Let the 85%'ers wannabe-entertained, over-reach for the better-idea, itch-scratch, idealismā€™s do the pocket emptying ground breakingā€¦ Let them be the beta-use $'s shelled out worthiness proofā€™ers for you

S.U.

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I am going to tease you External Combustion (in large enough scale) power makers a bit.
Checking to see if you can logic reason.
Big Grid power distribution I have read from many sources over the decades as losing from at least 40ā€™s% to 60ā€™s% of the generated power in the long distance transforming and distribution.
Make sense to me when I look at the cooling fins need for the big, medium, local pole/ground installation transformers. See the true transmission line sag in high AC usage times.

I have four vehicles/tractors/mowers with lead acid batteries that each non-use over-winter I must decide to keep charged up. Or not.
Engine Not stated and batteries recharge at least every 4 weeks and I will be having to change out 1-2-3 of these batteries every year or two from plates locked up sulphation. Bad use/$'s efficiency there! More lead to be mined, and refined, made into plates.
Starting, running these engines to self-charge the batteries without the equipment actually being worked is Zero fuel-use efficiency.
So at times Iā€™ve removed and pulled all of these batteries out. Lined then up and from Grid electric rotating battery charged/maintained them. A lot of eats holes on clothing acid work created. And again since no actual work has been done - Zero energy use efficiency.
My Grid supplier has a Natural Gas Generating station. Now two big gas turbines. Began as 20 leased big Caterpillar natural gas IC engine generators.
Also fed into my Grid supplier is the power mix from five 100 car trains of fossil coal trained for steam turbine generated electricity.
So . . . 90% fuel to generated electricity efficiency at these plants at best. Lose, say 40% of that in transmission to me. Lose another 10% in the battery charger input/output to charge those batteries.
Gee, fellows, seems I lost 50% of the fuels energy getting my batteries charge up the Big-Grid way.

Alternative.
Take one of our two personal very modern IC engined inverter generators.
The engines ā€œonlyā€ 30-40% fuel to shaft efficient. Agreed. But truly on these direct driven PM magnet flywheel generators they are full cycles 90% shaft to their regulated voltage/frequency electrical outputs efficient.
Ah!! But these do make directed outputs heat too. Park the units under either the diesel tractor or my pickup truck and the units now no longer wasted heat is equipmentā€™s engine heating too while charging up the equipmentā€™s starting/running lead acid battery. Cold, cold stiing osaked and the warmed engine crank over easier, start up, warm up faster. Save engine fuel use energy.
Same 50% over all fuel use efficiency. In a personal sized, personally owned. personally controlled-use package.
No permissions needed to use to hook up and use. Last Grid change we needed cost $4,000. USD just in the change system permitting and inspections.
No Grid power use Town, County, State, Federal stacked on use-taxes.

Do your see stoop-pid printed onto my forehead?
The stupid is being distracted by the smoke and mirrors of single point efficiency maniacā€™ing and feeding the Investor/Make a better world for Me, and my Class of demagogues.

No dolphins were harmed in making this statement.
Steve unruh

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Iā€™ll bite Steve.

An easily ignored fact of liquid and gaseous fossil fuel is that about half the embodied energy is said to be consumed in exploration, extraction, refining and transport. On matters of actual efficiency we have to consider the supply chain before it comes out of the gas pump.

Recovery of IC waste heat is a good idea for sure, but rarely implemented. This sounds more in the category of the cake eater perfectionistsā€¦ :wink:

Also, cost in our present system isnā€™t a great measure of actual efficiency. Iā€™m sure you have an idea of how many direct subsidies, and tax concessions there are to the drilling and refining sector?

On other matters, as for battery deterioration, my new idea is quick connectors to take one battery between machines. Like you Iā€™m tired of battery maintenance and failure. I only run one machine at a time. Two batteries in rotation should fill the bill.

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How about this one Steve, Garry. I have a portable charcoal gasifier that runs my genset, which runs battery chargers. Use the battery chargers to charge batteries as need. The Fuel is all the char from my wood gasifier that I have saved up from Driving On Wood or what I have made. My charcoal gasifer will run for hours with no reloading requirement. The Cost, just some sun shine that God gives us every day to grow the wood, or bamboo. Also a little sweat from my brow for labor.
Also the charcoal could come from the wood stove that heats the house. After the charcoal is used in the gasifier the ash can go to the garden or compost pile. No waste, 100% green, carbon neutral, just what any tree hugger like me wants to see. Let them trees grow! and clean up the air.
Bob

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I donā€™t like lead acid batteries either. This guy has put together a capacitor bank that he says will start his Honda Pilot 2.4L. Iā€™d be interested to hear your comments Steve.

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Hi RindertW.,
I began to watch his capacitor/starter video and quit as soon as I confirmed that he was claiming with just hand cranking/charging he was able to PRODUCE and store the power needed to crank over that engine.
I have with my powerful legs maxā€™ed out electricity making and storing. 500 watt in an hour. It would take full body heart/lungs power making capacity for a significant portion of an hour to make enough energy electrically; to electric starter crank over, power up the fuel injection systems, power up and disable the vehicle security system and power supply the ignition system.
Just right there - he is bogus B.S.
Now capacitors for energy storage? Works. Been used for years and years. Great for high voltage, low power wattage. TVā€™s. CDI ignition in small engines so needing no batteries - the hand and foot kicked crank started.
And . . . another of his bogusā€™s. That Honda vehicle system charging system really does want an electrical load stabilization battery IF, and when, you and itself, starts switching in/out electrical loads like full night lighting. The AC compressor pump. Ect.
Capacitors do not supply this kind of wattage-use voltage stabilization.

GaryT., this cradle to grave analysis is just one of the latest distract-you spin-games to keep you from ever dong anything for yourself to make your own power.
Keep you from not doing.
Keep you who do use energies daily Dependent on what ever the current vested interests are supplying to you.
Keep you energy enslaved. Keep you sending off checks and debit card payments each and every month.

The Amish actually did get it closer to right way-back when, and all along. Cut as much as possible all Ceasar dictated Dependencies. Do/make what you need, as much yourself. Yes.Yes. You will have to give to the current world tiered Caesars, each, a bit of due. They have tax collectors backed up by men with guns. They own the Courts. Direct the prisons.

So . . . not actually being Amish I am not restricted from using electricity, and electrical power.
And you and I live in a part of the world surrounded by thousands and thousands of already deployed IC engines. With our countries commercial Importers bring in thousands and thousands more of newly manufactured IC engines a year from China.
Think back man.
Before the 1930ā€™s 1940ā€™s Rural electrification (Big Grid) push-out.
Most homes today heat with natural gas. Most homes today heat with propane. Some still heat with fuel oil. And most all Rural certainly do use gasoline and diesel to personal vehicle travel around with. No electric light rail trains for us.
These last two lines . . . .
since liquid refined fuels were already being delivered to the Rural back then. . . liquid fuel on-site mini electrical generators with heat recover/usage could have been how to ā€œelectrifyā€ the poor-poor Ruralā€™s at each location.
NO real effort back then was invested in doing this the most fuel economical ways. Intergrating systems enrgies outputs. No CHP for individuals was ever spoken of.

Well we do have off the shelf ways to do this now, competitively with Rural Big-Grid.
The whole culture driven Investor/Developer/Central-Controllers do not want this. Never wanted a fellow to bootstrap for himself independently. The Egyptoin Royals didnā€™t. The Greek elites classes didnā€™t. The Roman elites classes didnā€™t.
They could Lock the city living folk in with supplied foods, supplied water, supplied living wastes solutions, supplied energy -first charcoal/vegetable oils. Then better-solutions British and Urban elites fossil coal and whale oil. Then American/Canadian petroleum fuels and centrally made electricity. Big money to be made for the Investor/Money-men on all of this.

But those damn, independent Rurals! Setting bad examples! Slippery devils just had to be reigned in. How?
Addictions. Cheap subsidized Grid electricity. Free RFD mail.
Now dumped in Oxicodine. Seattilte streaming Net-flix, 300 channel info-tainment systems. Free-cheap Public health services to the poor-poor Rurals.
Convince them to never, never, ever be a planet killing wood-for-energy resource-using Hog!
Spin. Spin. Spin. Spin.

Site grown wood/brush (and bamboo-grasses) ARE the only personal energy Freedom fuels. Period.
And they hate this.
And they really, really hate anyone pointing out that site generated and used personal energies are the most use -efficient of all.
They really, really hate their latest cuteā€™sie interconnected info-world Point-Of-Use-Is-Better being hijacked and turned around for now freedom and independence. From them.

S.U.

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I dont think your math adds up, but I am very impressed if you can crank out 500wh for 60 minutes! My math goes something like this: Car needs 300Amps to start (wild ass guess, but makes the math easy) Voltage is 12v. So wattage is 3600 watts to start. Cranking for 1 hour takes 3600 watt hours. 1 hr = 60min*60sec = 3600 seconds. I.E. cranking engine at 300 amps for 1 second = 1 watt-hour of use. A 3 second crank would take 3 wh, which your legs could generate in 21.6 seconds (if you are still in 500 watt kind of shape :grinning: )

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I agree with your independence ethos. I also agree the Amish got things largely right. If the greater world had lived like them we wouldnā€™t be grimly facing peak oil, and climate disaster, weā€™d have many good centuries ahead, of honest work and meaningful lives within our means.

And as you observe, this didnā€™t serve elites, though I think itā€™s more because it wasnā€™t nearly as profitable. I donā€™t think a profit driven economy cares at all about people, a fact we may sadly live to observe as people canā€™t be used as profitably. To the system people arenā€™t even people, they are potential units of profit.

As for ā€œhookingā€, or enslaving people, I think itā€™s more the case that people are intrinsically lazy, and want something for nothing. Also, we grossly underpriced energy when crude was seeping out of the ground by itself in Texas and Saudi Arabia. And that bleeds into electric systems, as the power utilities run everything on diesel. Never mind the mining and smelting operations for the cable and transformers.

On the IC efficiency issue, I was just pointing out the real efficiency equation. If we are talking in terms of true efficiency, we have to compare fairly. And once we subtract roughly half for the pre pump losses, IC is on a par or behind a lot of systems.

For concentrated power in remote locations, FF is clearly the best. Chainsaw in the bush, or plane traversing the arctic ocean. Iā€™m good with taking a half gallon of gas into the bush to work up wood all day, the environment can bear that.

As for the donā€™t hurt the trees faction, I get the sense that is a west coast and urban thing. I donā€™t see much of that political agenda here, and have a sense thatā€™s the case in much of the continent.

For sure, the accesible stop gap is to re-use existing IC for power generation. But IC systems donā€™t have exceptionally long lives, and are deeply dependent on a parts supply system, and lubricant oil. And as mentioned, the true efficiency isnā€™t stellar. Itā€™s what we have to work with.

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Funny, every vehicle I ever worked with would run and drive, after it was started, with the battery disconnected. And early vehicles like the Ford Model T were hand cranked. There was no battery at all. Yes, I know, a bunch of broken arms.
Capacitors have no chance to store the approximately 40 Amp Hours of energy that batteries do. But why should they? Mathematically at least, whats necessary is a kick-in-the-pants burst of power. I can reasonably turn the engine over on my 1991 Ranger 2.3L two revolutions in 90 seconds, with my bare hands, on the harmonic balancer. I can easily imagine that capacitor bank doing the same thing in 1/2 a second.
Rindert

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When I was a very young youngster I remember Dad parking a tractor at the top of the barns dirt ramp to the second story hay storage floor or something like that. He invented the gravity starter battery. It was charged while the tractor was still running by backing it up the dirt ramp incline. At the top it would be shut off. Since we never had working brakes it would be left in low gear. To start close the ignition switch, shift into high gear, step on clutch then at the correct speed let the clutch out and it would start.

Looking for SMART investors to buy shares in this new technologyā€¦

He also had a dozer with a small gasoline pony engine. This engine also pre-heated the prime mover engine.

Solar-Fuel, onward !

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Did it look anything like this one? :grinning: Gotta love old iron!

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Thatā€™s where DOW comes into play with the
IC Engine, just a little sweat off the brow. Up river from me I could see the smoke today, lots of cords of orchard wood being burned. Enough wood to run my truck for a few years every day. What a waste, but at least it is carbon neutral smoke.
Bob

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If you have a hard starting vechile on a cold day, you need the extra amps that capacitors donā€™t have. Oh yes, you can build one with more amps storage but now it is bigger than your orginal battery design. You will need more room to install it.
Bob

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Swedish tempo-racer champion Gustaf Larsson once managed to reach 486 W during a race.
I am too very impressed with @SteveUnruh being able to crank out even higher power for a full hour :smile:

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It reminded me of this video I saw back when i was building my bike generator, and i was wondering how much power an elite athlete can put out.

I dont think my system was very efficient, but I was able to generate 120w of actual output for a few minutes at a time.

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