Just a quick post and some brainstorming on my part… the distributor less ignition systems on the newer engines. I have been researching in and looking and almost did the unthinkable of switching my 5.0 project… back to a carburetor from fuel injection… because of the inability to advance timing sufficiently enough to run chargas… which would also involve loosing my transmission control… I thought about a tuner… but… 600 just to adjust my timing. and not 100% sure of the outcome seems like a waste of money… was looking at putting a distributor back in… but would take away my fuel injection… then I noticed… my crankshaft position sensor… is mounted up front on my engine… and looks like room enough to fabricate up a new mount that I should be able to rotate on the fly… to switch from gasoline to chargas on the fly… some machining and thought are going to be involved… it’s in the planning stages yet as I haven’t got the engine out of the doaner vehicle yet… hope I am around long enough to finish this project. As of today My Ford Explorer Sport Trac… that I am swaping out… the 4.0 engine with 252k miles to the 5.0 (302) with 155k miles because transmission is giving me Woes… and timing chain guides on the 4.0 are notorious for going out… Pictures coming later.
I wouldn’t do it on a large, expensive vehicle engine but…
An alternative to bumping the timing is drilling and tapping the head(s) for dual spark. Igniting the fuel charge in two places means that the combustion front “completes” that much faster. Char-gas is a slow burner, mostly due to being dilute.
I doubt it would be enough, but a split tip spark plug might help as well.
Chargas is about 100+ octane…like with any high octane fuel…you need a longer or hotter spark to ignite the fuel…yes chargas is diluted…but 25+ degrees advance timing is needed for the different power band…and like Wayne does sometimes you need to add a little gasoline to get the added power…but that means changing timing on the fly…too much advancement will cause detonation or spark ping…when adding gasoline too little and no power…dual spark plugs are a costly to machine and a custom ignition system is needed .and on some engines impossible to do…easiest and cheapest rout is changing your timing… even the WW2 gasifiers had a timing advance. Thanks for your input though shows you are thinking outside the box.
I doubt it, but you might want to see if the engine is e85 capable. As I understand it, they do on the fly engine advance for that and depending on what year. The earlier models only switched if it was like >75% ethanol. If the cards line up, then you are just having to fake a fuel density sensor reading. but I think 4.0s I think were the E85 ones
My first guess would be to install a second sensor and a switch. The second sensor would be in the correct position to deliver spark during woodgas operation. This would be mechanically simpler, so I think cheaper and more reliable.
Rindert
Ford Explorer Sport Trac, 4.0L 2004 - 2005 was flex fuel.
It looks like quite possibly the timing is controlled by the ECM and it varies.
You would need a tuner. Which kind of gets back on how to fool the ecm into knowing it has different fuels.
Hi,
There were different generations of Ford 4.0L V-6 engines. All fuel injected of some type?
From the early cam-in-block pushrod engines; to the later single overhead cam adaption to this engine. Then at least one even later far different block, different dual overhead cams system.
DennisP I think your advanced located cam sensor on the earlier cam-in-block engine will work.
I cannot say this with 100% reliability on Fords. But a for-sure on Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products to monitor for long chain wear and slack making wear in the many guide rails then the software is programmed to watch for camshafts to crankshaft beyond programmed slipped sychonization.
This was said to help declare immediate repairs needed to bring emissions back into factory certified capabilty. Ha! For CDJ it would also tell when the left side camshaft breaking in half on the 4.7 DOHC.
On the 2.7L DOHC V-6’s that the stupid camshaft chain driven water pump bearings were going out. Too far of sychronization shifting; or RPM up and down scattering.
Detecting too much cam-to-crank phase change you’d be forced go into power and gears reduced, limp-in mode.
The Wife’s much later 3.5L DOHC V-6 Ford does also stupidly internal direct timing chains drive its water pump.
IT does have a cam-to-crank degree monitored number I read on my scanner.
The vehicles with flex fuel software you can ussully scan for an an alcohol detected or calculated percentage. Can watch the timing indeed increase adding some E-85 to a part tank of E-10. Then change again ran down and near full filled with E-85.
Sure. Changes in the vehicles fuel tank, pump, lines, fuel injectors and o-ring seals certifying for flex-fuel E-85.
But the wider range allowed timing maps are all in the PCM/ECM computer.
Again I am not sure but just match up with an appropriate for the engine style computer.
Then as SeanO’ said spoof the alcohol sensor input.
Which some some mid-era manufacturers systems did not use. They’s simply keep progressively marching the timing advanced looking for engine pinging at the knock sensors. Jump back the timing immediately. Inch it forwards again with a bit more EGR to find a new maximum point. Repeat. Repeat. Continuously. GM’s and Toyota’s do this a lot.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Lets see if I understand this, using a flexi fuel vehicle for gasification would possibly mean that if you could manipulate the alcohol sensor towards E85 when driving on wood or charcoal the timing would advance and the computer would take care of the adjusting for you and at the same time since it is a obd-II flexifuel vehicle not throw any codes regarding that.
I would imagine it still throwing codes from fuel pressure and fuel pump though but would that still mean possible limp mode?
Is this then a way into obd-II gasification for us that has annual inspections if the timing is advancing enough and we could manipulate the fuel sensors?
I have read some threads about obd-II conversions but it is not a lot of info about the codes they throw.
If this isn’t obvious to everyone, I have never been a petrol head, just doing what is necessary on a car. Even replaced and rebuilt a couple of obd-II engines so not afraid of doing what is needed but it takes longer of course with a level of insecurity as well so therefor the perhaps stupid questions.
I have OBD2 on my car, can’t affect the ignition either, but it still runs pretty well, passed the inspection without any problems this year too, so I have 2 years until the next inspection, yippee.
But isn’t the check engine light on when driving on wood?
If it is then a flying roadside inspection would have you go for an extra inspection but then of course it has to be on gasoline and with a resetted computer and then it would pass.
When I started using gas several years ago, the light didn’t come on, but it could be the oxygen sensor that was broken then.
Now the light comes on pretty quickly after resetting, it’s the oxygen sensor that warns of too little oxygen, always, but you can quickly turn off the light with your phone.
Hi Johan, you are allowed to inspect with check engine light on, pre 2002? some.
A flying inspection often give you a remark and send you to inspection anyway (they don’t know better) at inspection they just “shake their heads” and let you go, it still costs inspection though.
Sigh.
There are endless articles up on the NET about the change over from before OBD II to then OBD II. And it’s now in the U.S. since 1996 many steps, phases of added tasks and complexity. The most important to understand was its mandate to be continuously; repeatedly; monitoring systems emissions achieved performance. MONITORS.
Then later; it’s now evolution to monitoring the operators uses of the systems. Of course for your safety. Your conveniences. Blah blah blah.
So . . . it will always be your OBD II: as was installed in your vehicle: as was demanded required, when and where, the vehicle was originally sold.
Expect you will Never be able to keep the red check engine light always off.
Will driving this way cause the now enhanced computer to affect your operating? Only you; or Hotrod’ers and street-racers, whispered exchanged experiences will be able to find out.
Pre-OBD II . . . OBD I and before . . . you mostly could just drive around with the glaring check engine lights.
JohanM. there ain’t nobody anywhere who knows all of convoluted nuances to all of the applied interpretations the manufacturers have been forced to apply of U.S. OBD; California Air Resources Board; EU evolving Tiers levels of mandated requirements.
Some of the now world wide developers of Scanners for sale get the closest to the broadest understanding.
Pay at least currently $1,000 to $4,000 for a high grade scanner is golden door in. They’d tell you.
Do not do this. This is for poor professional working shops guys forced to trying to work on anything, everything.
You only need to learn yours. Its limit set points. And how to manipulate spoof it for the results that you want.
Always bearing in mind these became advanced system were specifically set up to lock you into a single type of commercial fuel.
Specifically designed to not allow any significant systems modifications.
Always manufactures designed to please you currently. Later disappoint you so you would junk it set it aside for a then newer manufactured “better” by them.
And now for almost two decades the Regulations as politically forced evolved to troublesome force us all off of petroleum products.
So think of it as a Game. How to for your own personal use beat the Casino Masters and be able to walk away with the Cheese.
S.U.
When I was looking at harnesses for some vehicles. I think it was part of the LS engine discussion somewhere. They actually had on the harness the wiring for the e85. it just didn’t have the sensor.
The question would be if the software does anything with it or not if it has the non-e85 engine in it. I emailed a couple of people about it, and no one responded.
Ha! The next step in controlling you in your automobile will be AI wider incorporation.
You know like this laptop of mine after its last mandated forced system up grade now no longer just red underlines what it thinks are misspelled words. Helpfully giving me a selection of choices.
No-no. Now it red underlines and then when I type past without selecting “improving” it will substitute’s in a whole word it chooses. Too often wrong.
Worse than that. When I post up send . . . I read back later and whole words are changed as in, “I am sure actually you meant this”.
I am seeing this now in other members postings more and more. Not human err miss-spells and letters transpositions . . . whole wrong words insertions.
Friggin’ annoying beyond belief.
S.U.
Im with you there SteveU, i really HATE when a stupid machine behaves “smart-ass” against me, like “woodgas is not a word the mainstream people use, im SURE you meant Football, i correct it for you, and then you are like all other people”
Well got me going there? Im sure i have some of them ABCDE-dysfunctions im my brain, otherwise i shouldnt be that angry on stupid machines.
I actually crushed a work-smartphone once (before i had one myself) it really drove me insane with that correction sh*t- stupid and a act of rage, and expensive-but it still feels good to think about
This is very cheap and can do a lot, the app is free if you don’t need all the functions, you connect it to your phone, so you can see live how the car behaves and clear codes.
Thanks Jan, I am going to buy another reader but I am going for the one at biltema that reads vw-specific codes as I have abs problems on both the skoda and the volvo and the reader cost about the same as going to a garage to get a read-out.
The volvo has the obd1 reader already built in the car, simple but functional (six errors on the abs alone so no checkup there until it is fixed).
