https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4CL3bqit0osTjE3b09zckRFR1k/edit?usp=sharing
Based on my research and for those who like to play with numbers…
The yellow numbers are to be altered.
Have a nice play / insight
Edit:
i had to edit the spreadsheet due to an error i made in the conversion from KwH into Hp
For those, who are already using the old version, change the formula in the cell from * into /
i’m very appreciative of all the fascinating work here. thanks in particular Koen for sharing your discoveries and insight. i was wondering if you could give us a link to an enlarged version of that graphic above of the “notar” gasifier and maybe supporting text to clarify what’s going on with the intake areas etc.
another question i’ve been wanting to ask is how do you deal with the ash from your gasifier. i’m assuming that at the present you just dump everything out before refilling, but maybe there is another method you use or plan on using?
Robin,
I will try to find more about their gasifier tomorow in the office.
(German website)
My system is still under construction 
I try to give frequent updates.
Sometimes i have a grate installed lifted with the nozzle tip, loaded from the top, floating, resting on the nozzle pipe.
Working on a new design for regular shaking, exenter on a low rpm dc motor, moving the grate up and down 1/2"
I want to keep the charcoal in a constant same condition, to obtain a constant gas quality. (Packed and dense charcoal bed)
I noticed that need, special with the small engines.
Going to choke more on the air side (air -gas mixer) with an orifice restriction to obtain more suction-vacuum on the nozzle.
Preparing a test to run the unit on a mixture of pure oxygen with pure carbon dioxide. This to prove my claim that a proper gasifying system is a carbon dioxide killer.
More updating tomorow.
A link to this Notar gasifier.
Belgian company not a German as i was thinking…
Claiming a lot of knowledge but no solid facts to find on their website
http://www.xylowatt.com/index.php/the-notar-gasifier.html
My blunt statements of the week, to keep ya busy
Been playing around with “theoretical” data on my spreadsheet…( all published data concerning gas contents from any source i could find )
Blunt conclusions, only my opinion
Gas quality varies up to 80% in power, most important issue with gas is to maintain a continuous homogeneous mixture coming out your gasifier.
Mixture (air-gas) control is more important then “throttle” control (automatic mixture control a must ?)
Co2 in your gas does not affect your power content as much as it indicates you are not running efficient.( burning to much without converting, thus producing more heat unused )
Reducing airinlet towards your gasifier gives a better temperature /gas quality control then adding exhaust gas return ( my bravest statement )
in case of temperature adjustment needed, ad pure Co2… this will reduce your consumption also ( your exhaust gasses are fluctuating as much as you feed your engine )
EGR is however better then none temperature control…
Hydrogen in combination with Carbon monoxide is good to avoid timing adjustments and creates the possibility to run at higher Rpm, not gives you plenty more HP at same revs… ( timing adjustments is needed if you don’t have, or only little Hydrogen, in your gas ) 10-15% range for starters, but i guess raw wood is always producing H2 at higher levels ?
Adding boost ( Oxidizers ) to have more temporary power (accelerating) , the best place and way to do is, ad pure O2 in your air gas mixture-intake manifold ( or any other mixture which enhance the O2 content, reducing the Nitrogen content the utmost )
A roots compressor will help also and might be cheaper… ( more benefits for smaller engines )
Cooling down your gas mixture with a device-intercooler connected with your airco system will benefit performance (a lot )
These are my thoughts for the weekend , working on a few other issue’s same time
@Robin,
Ash clean out by removal of the nozzle bottom side. is a 2 1/2" opening. if the grate is not installed, all charcoal comes out to.
Since i do more testing then actually making long runs, i am not having a lot of ashes.
For the farmer purpose this is ok, with the grate as i have. will post some pictures tomorow.
Working on drawings for a bigger design for stationary , small power unit.
I have a 10" pipe waiting for my idea’s…
This time i want to make a flanged type of gasifier with a lot of gismo’s ( interchangeable modules future wise )
Still have a lot to learn before i can build a raw wood gasifier dough…
Hi Koen, For the sake of discussion, let me offer a few comments on your observations. "Co2 in your gas does not affect your power content as much as it indicates you are not running efficient. I’d say “Co2 in your gas ABSOLUTLEY DECREASES your power content as WELL AS indicates you are not running efficient.” If you have CO2 in your charcoal gas, then there is not enough reduction going on in your gasifier due to rat holes, too large of charcoal pieces, too short of a reaction time or the temps are too low. But what ever the reason, CO2 is a power killer.
“Reducing airinlet towards your gasifier gives a better temperature /gas quality control then adding exhaust gas return ( my bravest statement )
in case of temperature adjustment needed, ad pure Co2… this will reduce your consumption also ( your exhaust gasses are fluctuating as much as you feed your engine )”
Reducing the air inlet may starve your engine for enough volume of gas. Of course this depends on how small you reduce the air inlet. Without a doubt, the hotter the oxidation zone, the better your charcoal gas will be since the reduction zone will also be increased. The purpose of adding the exhaust gas is strictly to bring down those tempertaures to save on the steel nozzle. If you go with a ceramic nozzle, forget the exhaust gas. But, the exhaust gas does have some water and will “eat” some of the CO2 and in a small way recycle some carbon. As far as the exhaust gas fluctuating much, this is something I have not observed. Most of my observation is with a governor run generator. Set the air mixture valve and exhaust return valve, and walk away.
Keep up the experiments. and until later,
Gary in PA
Hi Gary,
for the debate; i use the value of comparing the different gas contents with a 100% stoichiometric corect adjustment = lambda 1
If you look into the spreadsheet eariar, and play with the value’s, then you’ll notice that: if you increase the amount of Co, you also need to increase the amount of air in your combustion mixture.
The amount of Co2 going to the engine is replacing the nitrogen if all the other values stay the same.
adding power into the gas by increasing a combustible in a percentage, also means that you have to ad oxygen into your mixture towards the engine thus also increasing the amount of nitrogen.
This basic theoretical numbers do indicate dough the baselines from the happenings.
In the real world the fluctuations always will be there, therefore i put the sentence "automatic mixture control a must " ? with a question mark.
Since most gasifiers are running in a “batch mode” there will be difference between startup - middle and end of cycle quality in the gas.
I did put al my observations in a single perspective and formed my conclusions based on my perspective only…
Sure future will learn me more
The governor , as you mentioned, is doing a great job in compensating, but what is invissible for you is if the governor reacts the same as in the beginning or different during the whole batch run ?
Adding Co2 to cool down the temperature is an old technique which i re-discovered thanks to your simple fire systems.
The reading hints from Steve U and the comments of every builder on DOW made me study further.
EGR is a starter, but if you look deep into it you’ll probably find following as a solid statement;
Adding exhaust gas into the air intake of the gasifier dilutes the amount of oxygen in the air, oxygen needed to generate heat for combustion of charcoal and reduction in the following zone.
Since all the conversions to be done in the gasifiers are , bottom line, consuming charcoal burned by oxygen, is it important to have just the proper amount of oxygen added as required to do the job.
Since air consist of largely 79% of inert and 21% of oxygen, it is better for the gasifier to give it only oxygen with the least dilution possible.
Since the known process from converting Co2 into Co takes away heat from the process and gives back a richer gas content without diluting the mixture with inert gasses…
Putting al these values into the perspective and in the spreadsheet makes one important statement visible: Any gasifier with a constant quality of gas will run a IC engine
Once adjusted and no parameters changing, the engine will run and produce power.
Old knowledge and examples from ww2 are showing they did exactly what i am describing, adjusting throttle and mixing valve simultaneously. even did find earlier testing and using adjustable nozzles, automatic, depending the vacuum of the engine.
But the experiments are there to learn. a smaller gasifier with the correct tweaking can produce same energy but more efficient.
With the knowledge available we can reduce the erors we would make if we only do trials
Back to the temperatures:
Charcoal can get really hot :-), it does reach temperatures where the ashes melt, depending on the feedstock of course.
The great thing about your GGG is the temperature retaining capability, where most other gasifiers having a great heat loss by venting the hot gas, here the hot gas gets cooled down with the feedstock in direct contact…
I want to continue on that base and the future is looking great whit that basic setup.
For political reasons and because its true, i will proclaim further , in simple words, that using a gasifier = consuming Co2 ( reducing it into Co)
Gary , i enjoyed reading your reply and i sure will enjoy reading more of those.
Posting some pictures from the nozzles and the grate i use.
See the 3 sizes of nozzle tips, 10, 8 and 6 mm
3 tips from 6 mm = same size of 1 tip 10mm
The nozzle tube, when inserting, lifts the grate about 3", or lowers when removing the nozzle tube.
The nozzle assembly is inserted in the thread , size 2 1/2" in the bottom plate
The lowest position of the grate is about 2" above the bottom plate, resting on the SS ring inserted in the reactor tube.
Since this setup is welded and not flanged i have to put the grate in and out from above.
Soon if i find flanges…
KoenVL you did it again.
Gary Gillmore clearly said “discussion” which means “to talk about”, “to investigate”.
You changed this to “debate” which means “to argue”, “to fight”.
I took these meanings out of the online dictionary keyed onto both your written words.
Why do keep insisting on taking such a winner takes all posture?
First there are NO absolutes in Life, let alone the Universe. Always at least 3-4 different applicable ways to make the engine shafts go around and around for a purpose. Which is best for the time will depend on many more important things than the absolute purity of any idealism of maths or chemical balances. Engineering solutions that get things done are always a balance of compromises.
Second, the DOW like all volenentary social compacts; you will untimately be the loser when members stop reading or responding to such aggressive posturing.
We agree to discuss here to learn and share to come up with a RANGE of engineering solutions useable.
We agree to not debate here because even if win the argument you will unnecessarily make enemies of the losers.
Been there. Done that. With woodgas. In the last 5 years. These wounds never heal completly. Win today, and pay a price forever.
Steve Unruh
Steve, sorry to hear that my english is incorrect in using words as you know them…
Since you confused me, again, i looked up the word “debate” since i was honestly the opinion that debating was a civilized way of discussing and i did find following…
“Debate is contention in argument; dispute, controversy; discussion; especially the discussion of questions of public interest in Parliament or in any assembly.[1]
Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premises, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn’t the case, or rhetoric, which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior “context” and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic. The outcome of a debate depends upon consensus or some formal way of reaching a resolution, rather than the objective facts as such. In a formal debating contest, there are rules for participants to discuss and decide on differences, within a framework defining how they will interact.
Debating is commonly carried out in many assemblies of various types to discuss matters and to make resolutions about action to be taken, often by a vote. Deliberative bodies such as parliaments, legislative assemblies, and meetings of all sorts engage in debates. In particular, in parliamentary democracies a legislature debates and decides on new laws. Formal debates between candidates for elected office, such as the leaders debates and the U.S. presidential election debates, are sometimes held in democracies. Debating is also carried out for educational and recreational purposes, usually associated with educational establishments. The major goal of the study of debate as a method or art is to develop the ability to debate rationally from either position with equal ease.
Although informal debate is common the quality and depth of a debate improves with knowledge and skill of its participants as debaters. The outcome of a contest may be decided by audience vote, by judges, or by some combination of the two.”
In my opinion debating is also listening to the others points of view, and discussion is having a solid opnion where is no room for understanding others.
I might be wrong in my perception of the two words and i might be wrong in using words, but rest ensured, there is no meaning of trying to win… as i clearly stated above, only expression my “blunt statements, only my opinion, my statements”
I do respect other opinions and statements, from that i can learn…
In my experience is making a statement about a topic nothing more then a correct outlining of a point of view and explaining why having this point of view.
So for the sake of understanding… my english is not that sophisticated that i have full knowledge from any single word and i do apologize to who ever i might have offended …
Sure there is no intend to do so.
Steve, this is what i meant with debating
“Online debating[edit]
With the increasing popularity and availability of the Internet, differing opinions arise frequently. Though they are often expressed via flaming and other forms of argumentation, which consist primarily of assertions, formalized debating websites do exist, typically in the form of online forums or bulletin boards. The debate style is interesting, as research and well thought out points and counterpoints are possible because of the obvious lack of time restraints (although practical time restraints usually are in effect, e.g., no more than 5 days between posts, etc.). Forums are moderated and welcome online debaters in a friendly format so all may speak their pros and cons. Many people use this to strengthen their points, or drop their weaker opinions on things, many times for debate in formal debates (such as the ones listed above) or for fun arguments with friends. The ease-of-use and friendly environments make new debaters welcome to share their opinions in many communities.
Some online debate communities and forums practice Policy Debate through uploaded speeches and preset word counts to represent time limits present in physical debate.[21] These virtual debates have the advantage of long periods of theoretical prep time, as well as the ability to research during a round.”
so for the sake of anything… i not want to win, i want to learn…
So today i learned the difference between debate and discussions…
I was wrong about me being right…
Thanks for the lesson Steve
KVL: Just 1 step in a healthy DIALOG. 
Brian,
it sure is…
Question for me to solve… what to do first… learning english and then build a gasifier ? Or the gasifier first?
I like to DOW and to SWEM…
Hi Koen, Thanks for the discussion/debate. We make observations and deductions based on our knowledge at the time. I appreciate how you have jumped into the wonderful world of charcoal gasification and your willingness to share what you’ve learned. This is not a get rich scheme as you know, but instead of holding your cards close to your chest, you lay them out on the table. Pretty much like most everyone on this forum does. Steve U has experienced the negative effects of people agitating each other on forums such as this and is sensitive to the destruction it can cause and rightly so. I highly respect every word he says as he also has at heart the desire to share and pass on valuable information. I read your reply word for word and enjoy the exchange. Lets keep it up with both of us realizing we are experimenting and coming to conclusions that we may need to rethink. Enough of that.
Let me comment on the pictures you posted about the nozzle. In particular the grate. What is it’s purpose? Seriously, I don’t know what it will accomplish. The holes are large and the charcoal pieces will simply fall through them and fill the space under it. The charcoal under the grate will not be reduced and therefore will not be available for use. I’m thinking you should remove the grate, drop the nozzle down 3 inches and use it that way. I like your ceramic nozzles. With those in place, I would not use engine exhaust because there is no need to temper your oxidation temps. Ash will form, but it will be off to the sides of the nozzle and not interfere with the oxidation of the charcoal.
I know you want a flange to attach this entire unit to the gasifier, but if you could make your nozzle part of a screw in cap (3" is what I am using) then you can remove the entire nozzle assembly and let the ash fall out.
Jeff Davis on the Yahoo charcoal gasifier usergroup has a similar set up where the air enters the bottom of the charcoal gas generator. He does not need exhaust gas to cool the nozzle because there is none. Just fire clay in the bottom of the generator around the hole. This is actually a more “simple” design than what I came up with. I’ll be looking into making one in the future.
Keep plugging along.
Gary in PA
Hi Gary,
Thanks for your reply.
First part i folow you all the way 100%
Second part, the grate:
Since my system is vertical and so not so simple as yours…
I wanted to prevent that the whole load of charcoal comes out when not neccesairy.
With this grate i can remove the nozzle tube for changing the nozzles even in glowing coditions.
Yes the holes are big, the plate comes from a stone barbeque stove, but that was my purpose.
To find out of this is a good working system, or if id need adjustment, i have to wait for the next events… test test test.
Anyhow, i was so brave at the exhibition not using it, and then the ceramic nozzle fall out…
Have to imagine my face sitting there waring a tie…
Solved the problem and started thinking about solutions…
I will take your advice and shorten the length,
Until our next discussion/debate/dialog
Hi Gary G, again …
Here a picture of the nozzle assembly next to the gasifier
As you can see its fitted with a cap 2 1/2"
The other pictures showed you the content what was inside the reactor
Hi Koen, OK Got the reason for the grate. It will hold the bulk of the charcoal in the generator when you unscrew the nozzle for what ever reason. With out the grate, the entire contents of the generator will be dumped.
Thanks.
Gary in PA
Hi Gary,
Yes it does.
Your comment dough gave me another good idea, i hope.
I want to lower the grate untill the nozzle peaks through for about 2"
then having the shaking device vibrating the grate up and down for keeping the charcoal in a dense state.
i did read about that again today in the book that Steve pointed out, treatise on producer gas.
