Health Care Costs. Who. Where. Why

Off Topic
#1

This keeps coming up on individuals topic lines.
Seems to be a lot of social pressure steam here.

Maybe best to have a pressure release, safety valve dedicated safety release topic on this.
AdminChris can kill this from the get-go, or later if it goes off the tracks.

I’ll start.
For those of you in other contries wondering about the “US Problem” it is easy. Most everything really needful is priced at most cheapest suppler value here. Gasoline. Vegetables. Meats. Clothing. Electronics. Home use appliances. Tools. Most, but not all “toys & pleasures” at cheapest cost too…
Beer, wines, liquires, mj have very high “sin”, “social responsibility taxes” added.
Automobiles, firearms, and many others do have escalating “VAT” taxes.
To you not knowing VAT is a Value Added Tax. A social responsibility tax supposedly to help finance a better society.
Now follwing the comment been made on other topic do realize in the more social progressive states and areas there are multi-layered subscription service taxes and fees. Phone. Power. Water. Sanitary sewer. Storm water.
There are progressive increasing personal property taxes.
Mine and the wife’s layered up now to 11% annually.
Health care we CHOSE to join and be members of a not-for-profit Group Managed Healthcare Network. Not inexpensive.

So USofA healthcare is done on the Robin Hood redistribution principal. Those who have and can; must pay for those who cannot and won’t.
Robin Hood/communism works until you run out of those with the “wealth” to pay.
In the US we are running out of the broad, deep middle class able to pay in much more than they take out. A few such as the Gate’s, Balmers, Waltons, Sucherber’s and others as trend-setters/addict-makers climbing up out of middle class into being truly rich.
The vast majority of the built America workingman/woman middle class slipping down into the working poor. Or given up working - now just getting by on progressive-social hand-me-downs programs. Every Program needing of couse a professional highly degree’d Administrator, with a staff, offices, vehicles, travel-healthcare-retirement allowances.

I do not see health care in the US as settling out to be a fair-for-all.
Many here will fight social progressive as the last assault on their personal liberties. Fight their last loss of personal choice. Why we and our folks left old-countries to go to America - for the choice to live or die free.

FreeChoice is American, above all. Forced-choice is repugnant to a true blue American.
I dropped home internet service to drop out of taxes/fees. Use library/public as a taxed social service I think is important to maintain. I never buy lottery tickets. I do not cater to Indian or other gambling. I do not attend concerts/sports events. MY choices!
Drive much less to free up money to pay unavoidable or deemed needful social taxes.
To be able to pay the social-tax costs now for others unwilling to work and pay into the system I no longer have my teeth fixed. -anymore. Clean daily of course. Erosion, lost crown anymore having mine pulled for $132. one tooth at a time. Cut up my foods finer, and finer. My choice.
My four year younger wife, still working, contributing, with-a-decades yet usable brain I invest into the implants and bridges.

This is real.
This will time in history will become the third American Civil War.
S.U.

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#2

Margaret Thatcher once said “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money”

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#3

Before Chris stops this topic, I agree mostly with Steve U. Except: It is OK to get your teeth fixed, avoid pain and enjoy eating as much as possible. Believe me, I know it is expensive! Yes, I would like to be able to choose to be health insured, or self insure, or some other community solution. Yes, we are taxed too much. Yes, there too many “Office of this and that Thing” in government that only suck tax dollars giving little or no return on the investment, just more regulations.

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#4

I hope Chris is still asleep.

It’s kind of funny how different perspectives we all have.

In the 60s and 70s when I grew up Sweden was ranked the no1 richest country in the world. Our government had a hard time spending all the money. We had been fortunate not to be involved in any war in 200 years and therefore got a head start in industrial development when the rest of Europe recovered from WW2. Health care, education and most other social sevices became free of charge. We had one state school, one state phone company, one state post office, one state train company and so on. We got 90% payment during sick leave, the highest pensions and 5 weeks fully payed summer vacation. We spent the most money per capita in the world on our military but never used it. No one needed to bother about health care insurances or education for their kids. Everyone was able to just go on with their lives and do what ever they liked. We had had a socialist government for almost 50 years and they seemed to do everything right. They got elected over and over again.
BUT we did have taxes. I think about the highest in the world, but very few complained.

Things are different now, but there are few things we still don’t want to let go of. Two of them are free education and free health care for everyone. Individual freedom is still more important here than what family you happen to be born into.

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#5

I started my company 25 years ago. I had a Ford Escort pony and a Sears Roebuck popup camper trailer. I built up the trailer to hold all the equipment I needed at the time to service residential homes. Don’t laugh, it got me by for a couple of years until I could buy a truck.
At that time I purchased my own healthcare ins. for $90/month. Full coverage and no copays. Withing a few years, I had employees and paid for their healthcare too. As the years rolled by, healthcare cost went up. 2008 with the recession, my company was failing and health insurance costs were through the roof. We had to drop health insurance for all.I remarried in 2010 to my current wife who had health insurance through USPS.
My company survived the recession but the profit margins got slimmer every year even though our gross revenue remained the same. In 2013 is when I started thinking about my situation. We bought this property Nov.2014 and moved here in 2015.
The amount of money that goes to social programs in our state is high. I am okay for helping those who need it but so many times I’ve seen the younger generation abusing it. I hope to set up this property to never need such programs. Dragging health insurance into what taxes I need to pay is frustrating. I want to be responsible for myself rather than be forced to play this game.
To buy the insurance I had 25 years ago would now cost me at least $2500/mo for my wife and I. Hopefully a wolf will drag me off into the woods before I get too old as to not burden those hardworking people.

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#6

I’m hoping a tree gets me ! ! ! :wink:

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#10

By all means. Delete as required.

#11

Done. Good call Dave. Thanks !

#12

I wounder if macdonolds pays for health insurence, im out of a job that is near heathy.

#13

I’ve already posted about this on other thread. I’ll just say, we all know (or know of) too many people riding the wellfare rolls, and the medicade, and here in Alabama it’s AlKids.(state sponsored children’s health coverage), free lunches, cell phone programs, the list gores on and on… SU is right. Way too many people have figured out where the welfare office is…way too few of us flipping the bill these days. The old saying (don’t know the actual numbers) is that 15% of us are carrying the other 85%.

We’re still doing alright, and I praise the Lord that we have all that we do. I don’t have anything to complain about. I’m free to work and live as I want. Work for myself now for more than 10 years, pay the bills 2 days a week so I can spend the rest of my time trying to do something for others. I eat at least 20 meals a week at a table with all six members of my family. Able to save a little. We produce a lot of our own food and energy, train our own children, so we’re more independent that way. But the trade offs are that you can’t afford the expensive stuff. The top of the “expensive stuff” list is health insurance. SO you learn to sew yourself up and such things.

My problem with the “socialism” isn’t really a personal complaint, I tend to manage alright in either system. My concern is for the system itself. Free societies die after enough people figure out that they can vote themselves benefits from the public bank account. It seems that it’s not a sustainable paradigm…That concerns me. When such systems die, they affect those within them. When you start messing with what people consider “their money” they get unreasonable. People react to such situations, and usually not well.

But at the end of it all, I am reminded that the Lord said, “see that ye be not troubled”. Basically, don’t worry about things you can’t do anything about. I think that’s what I’ll do now…go eat and get to work…have a good day all

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#14

I am not a religious man, bat amen to the last words. Its sometimes hard to do thugh…

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#15

Since Chris hasn’t stopped us yet I guess we’re still on track. I feel some hesitation on this subject though. Actually I really don’t see why there should be. Thanks Steve for starting this topic.
I fully respect others belives. Sometimes I don’t understand them but I guess it’s all about the values you were tought when you were short.
There are very few tabus in my country. Sexuality, religion and politics are discussed openly. Kristijan, I’m not religious either. Only a few percent of our population are. Many old churches are becoming private houses, hostels or such.
David, you’re good with words. Your posting was very well written. I’m sorry you had it withdrawn.
Jeff, I woke up too late this morning to be able read yours. I’m sure it would have been worth reading.

Steve, Don, Mike, Bill, Kevin and Billy, I can understand your reasons for not wanting to “carry” others. I can feel like that some times too but most of the time I don’t mind carrying those who are without or unable. What I don’t like is carrying the wealthy, earning there money in stock markets and such. The profit me and my work mates manage to scrape together at the mill end up in their pockets. One of the reasons I sometimes feel I want to bail out. Only I know if I one day get sick or injured I’m gonna wish I was still in. Also it’s convinient not to need to struggle with paperwork and insurance agents.
However vehicle state inspection is a pita.

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#16

Well, politics are a topic l hate most of all and like to turn away as soon as it starts. I fully understand and suport Chris in the battle against such topics.
Politic talc turn best freiends against each other.

But some things have to be sayd.

There were a lot of words writen above on socialism. But no offence, those were words writen by people who never lived in socialistic/comunistic countrys.

I am sure propaganda took its casualtys in many countrys and l am far to young to remember what the socialistic times were like, and eaven less to have a valuable political oppinion, but what l can tell you all in short is how life was in socialism/comunism in my former country, Yugoslavia, told me by people just a few years older.

Everyone had food, shelter, job, medical insurance, a small car, free education and enough free time, plus usualy free holyday resorts. Lots (well, most of) infrastructure still in use today, and houses, flats, schools, hospitals were built in that time.
A averidge 25 years old with a lowest payd job culd build a house without debt. PEOPLE WERE HAPPY!

Things we did not have:
Coffe, rice, bannanas.

People like to say religion was supressed. No. Everyone had a free will of life, but it is true you culd not be both a man of church and a policeman/teacher/official. In a way, it actualy maes sence.
Now, 25 years after socialism, l have a well payed job. Can l build a house? Yeah, a henhouse meaybe. A small cheap one wuld put me in debt for at least 10 years. Thats build and eat bread and water for 10years.
I am not saying it was perfect and it was hard for some (usualy greedy people who wanted more thain the neighbour-nop. Socialism doesent work that way) but in general, its hard to find a human being here that wuldnt say “yes, those were the days my friend.”

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#17

I love hearing from people with different perspectives and backgrounds. Reasonable adults should be able to exchange ideas and opinions without getting into what everyone fears----the modern state of our political mess. That’s not what it’s supposed to be. Open minded debate was the premise upon which a free society is built. Too bad it’s been hijacked by whatever has taken over the public debate now.

In any case, I’m sure that you’re right about propaganda taking its toll. We all come from somewhere, and have a cultural understanding from which to function. We’re all biased toward and against different things and that’s not always a good thing. Or at least not an accurate one. Thanks for sharing JO-Olsson and Kristijan.

Not only culture but also personal experience. I have lived in what I would call “socialist” countries. Perhaps my perspective on the subject is skewed by the fact that all the “socialist” countries I’ve ever been in were very poor countries where large numbers of people are suffering a lot. And all the “first world” countries I’ve ever been in were democratic to one degree or another. Interesting thought. I’ve never considered that my bias on this subject might be affected by that fact.

Thanks…I appreciate it…,

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#18

I hope no one is under the impression that all socialist countries are dictatorships. Far from it. Many European countries have had socialist governments most of the time since WW2. Sweden, France and several other fully domocratic states. Just saying.

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#19

DavidB and JeffD these posts were not “flagged” by me.
Do not seem to have been edited out by AdminChris.

Hmm. Can a member flag/block another post? I’ll have to ask ChrisKY.

My intent with this topic was to make a dump-out space for these very touchy ideas.
To try and keep the other info topics neutral, social and clean.

Do not expect to be convincing anyone on these issues to your viewpoints.
Just aintta goona happen.
Just because someone else views things different does not mean they are wrong.
Just as your viewpoint because you believe in it makes it right for others.

On of the really great things about social-justice-viewpoints in the USofA is that here is still physical possibly to vote with your feet and move to a less intrusive system. Without visa’s. Permissions. Kneel-downs.Bow-downs.

Back to my very developed opinions.
One of the worst of human characteristics is this always re-surfacing “need” that ALL MUST DO AS I DO.
First the original Emperors.
Then the all-world religious.
Then a spate of fascist, nazis, communists. Then all evoked into progressive-socialists.
Oh . . .do not forget the capitalists.

Now is the time of the Globalists. There is a question for you all to ponder. Are the Globalists as the World-bank, WHO, free-to-express-out-all Internet-ists . . . . capitalists? Fascists? Nazis? Communists?
Ha! Ha! Doesn’t matter. Globalism only works with LOTS, and LOTS of available cheap energy to move things and people around.
Kustner is correct. We are all going to have to learn to live local, reasonable.
With just the energy falling annually on the face of the planet, captured, concentrated and put to shaft turning use the highways, airports, and such will not be able to be maintained. Only a low teens percentage usable from Solar with the best of technologies.
So this Health Care who-pays, for-who is just a precursor to who will get to electric car around, helicopter-over with only 5%-15% of the available usable concentrated energy that we’ve gotten used to in the past 130 Dino-glut years.

Elites rare valuable energy hogging? WWII Europe, too many today countries with class srtuctures, like Mexico.
Or true democracy we-all-in-this-boat together. So everybody pulls an oar to get a share of the eating and drinking.
Hint: if your priest, prophet, elected leader, self-appointed leader is hoeing his/her own potatoes, tomatoes and has, and lives well with a dog then he/she is worth listening to.
Too pure, too in-thier-own-glory busy, to do theses things then let them fail, and stand on street corners screeching.

J-I-C Steve Unruh

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#20

JO is right, so was my intention with the post above.

Just one edit to it.

Why socialism dint work (and it most likely never will) here.
Noone was left to be poor, but allso noone was alowed to be rich. That simple. It was not the averidge people that collapsed thr sistem, it was greedy people who never had enough. Sad.

Now, we are a democratic capitalistic republic.
The definition “democracy is peoples right to vote their own dictators” is spot on.

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#21

I think the fact we have medicade or medicare is great if properly managed. Thou the fact the system of social schools and so on caint wait too inject or pill anyone’ kid with rittlein meds before even 6 or 7 years old for there cure of disorders, is the real problem, people in buisness of selling meds detroying the youth, makeing them self rich is a dam disgrace.I like the fact i pay in over the working years for social sucurity and when i am 62 or 66 i can slow down a little, thats what it was intended for nor for complainers or niger rich theives too steel that money and hand over too illegitament insurence and drug CO. Afordable heath care is past tense like Bill S was saying, back when i first started working health care could be obtained for a round 150.00 buck a month, that was too high for me back in 1977 makeing 3.35 an hour welding in an out sourse welding shop building brake shoes and winobago steering coulm braket.

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#22

I self edited my comments out Steve. Ultimately I have no skin in your game and will let you guys hash it out. I don’t see much mention in the rhetoric about the role aging demographics are playing. Our societies are old, the people are living longer and we spend more on them. At some point it breaks.

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#23

I don’t think anybody’s trying to convert anyone Steve…Just sharing opinions & perspectives…It’s all good.:grinning: It’s time for supper :hamburger:

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