Hi Pepe
Good to see you thinkin’ and doing. BEST way to improve hearth performance is to conserve it’s own heats.
Your old snow blower is now your lemon tree of resources. Exhaust heat off of this is your 2nd most important heat to put back into the overall process on a small stationary system IMO. EG: GEK Hotottie and Mr Waynes and others engine exhaust to primary air heat exchangers. This heat is so intense it is difficult to use for fuel drying unless diluted down with blended in cooler air. Why waste it? Lower temp engine cooler air/coolant heats and fuel gas cooler heats are already just right for wood fuel drying.
Picture of my “Lemonaid” made up woodgas small engine starter made up from an old push mower and a common ~1000 watt PM DC motor like in the cheapest Superwinch. That gen set’s gone now and time to retrieve the motor to put back together my DC electric chain saw for behind the PU seat winter storm road clearing. Hmm. On second thought, This motor if repulleyed could really spin up a large blower impeller on 12VDC. And the hand made counter bored internally threaded shaft nut made up from the lawnmower axle nut was tricky to make. Hate just now to throw it away. Lemons = lemonaid = $ health.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the “second notice” on the exhaust heat reclaim. I’ve pretty much stashed all your advice in my do it this way file. I’m coming around to it. You had at some point mentioned preheat to me, along with other gems of wisdom and experience. I didn’t mention it in my post, but in my latest vid I’m shown feeling the exhaust and commenting, “there’s a lot of heat to reclaim here”. Then I went blank!
I have a small wood splitter (engine dead) trailer with a 40" wide by 6’ long bed for the footprint I have to work with so unfortunately it will be the last preheat mod I do after I figure out my component layout.
I’m going to start with the single port air inlet then weld the fins on the cyclone, installing it and figuring out an easy way to connect them. Then move on to the S cooler reclaimer. Really hooked now. Can’t wait to try the improvements. Guess I’ll have to invest in some temp measuring devices and build the monometer I’ve been putting off.
Thanks for your help, Pepe
Ha! Ha! Your picture proves a couple of my “anal” points.
Engine exhaust heated ram cylinder!
Never seen that here, or the need. . . . 'cept for maybe 3-7 days a year here with constant below freezing.
Our need is to be able to condition 40-60% moisture by weight picked up wood. Third year in a row now without Summer wood drying weather. 11 million people here. Now toss in ~100-300 million more in parts of NZ, North Europe, North Asia, chunks of South America and Africa. Same this “summer” in western Europe for a min 100 million people. PalC had to take his wood and have it bakery oven dried for a recent Demo for use with his Imbert variant. So this is not just an anal Steve Unruh problem.
Now there IS enough combined engine and gasifier system heats to handily take 40-60% moisture raw wood fuel down to a easily usable >15% moisture. Been calculated for me by both Daniel Chisholm, Victory/Radam and now evidenced by the latest APL and VictoryShop systems. But this only works if you build in using up ALL of the “waste” BTU’s/Calories so the system will condition prep it’s own incoming fuels. Doesn’t matter if the BTU/Calorie is doing this open air, closed in the hopper or even super heating to go through the hearth.
Ha! Ha! Sorry co-gen guys in low/no solar climates and seasons be no extra BTU’s left for you. This is as good as it gets if the woodgas/engine system can self energy cut, process and condition it’s own woodfuel.
Best picture I’ve ever seen Chris Seymour put up of a 40’s era red Faar woodgas tractor with a woodgas fueled single cylinder engine powered tilt bed saw, chunk punching then de-fines conveyor into baskets/sacks wood processing system. It still wasted off the engine heats NOT drying the wood chunks
Ha! Ha! S-t-i-l-l working on a personal scale wood fueled fully heat integrated energy system.
Hello Fellow Gasifiers,
When Steve Unruh offers to save you a year or so off your life, please take his advice. He offered me the same a year or longer ago and I went merrily along with my FEMA build. I was reluctant to accept advice on a subject since I didn’t(relatively speaking) know squat about building a gasifier. The FEMA was comfortable, a drawing I could build from, envisioning my own 50 yr old IH Cub chugging along plowing, Farmer Pepe grinning ear to ear! lol. Now I offer you the same advice, Steve’s through years of experience and knowledge and mine from that year or so of finding out for myself that the FEMA is a good tar maker. There are 2 types of tars, water soluble and sticky non water soluble roofing like tar. It produces a burnable gas capable of running an ICE, but as the name implies FEMA is for emergency use. The tars eventually (soon) gum up valves, etc and require tear down to clean out the ICE. Even though the Fema is easy to build from scrounged materials and I learned a lot(except how to take advice lol), was all that effort to get a flare worth the effort in the end? IMO, not. Why? I concentrated (and you will. too) on building without doing much to learn the processing. Hey, build it, light it up and watch the flare. Then I lost the flare and had to stop and study to get a clue why this just happened! Advice to read and plan (on paper!- forces you to think about what’s happening here), present for critique, an invaluable tool of member knowledge and experience, but better yet is the willingness to share. It certainly inspires trust. I feel like a neighbor just a little further down the road.
I went on to the fluidyne 25th anniv design and then to my GEK type imbert by the numbers which produced a very clean ICE running gas. Guess what, I’m still retrofitting! Now for the preheat mods that should have been built in in the first place. I know some will try to retrofit the Fema to get imbert results ( I thought about it, but saw Andy’s vid on the fluidyne and went for another straight forward design) Build an imbert the first time for long term results and most definitely include preheat- thank you Chris for driving this home for me. I now understand that preheating is one of the mechanisms that provides the reduced oxygen atmosphere for the reduction zone You don’t need an hourglass shaped hearth, a straight tube will work well also and save the hassle of a cone roller build. I’m in the Dutch John third gasifier category, but I’m there and more psyched than ever about refining my gas.
I offer some pics and a vid to show you what you can expect from a running FEMA gasifier. I did not run an engine with my FEMA, but the self sustaining flare indicates a gas capable of doing so. I enjoyed the build, but it’s not where I would start now. The good news is pine needles are a good filter medium. Pine cones are not. THE LAST PIC is my GEK type gasifier filter after 2+ hours, clean as a whistle, except for a bit of new start up crud… Remarkable difference in hearth temperature
Please don’t think I’m putting down FEMA builders, I’m just trying to point out some facts. From where I sit now, I would skip the fluidyne, too. You’ll have to way improve the preheat there, it doesn’t exist, the 5 nozzles open to outside air through the shell. I’ll report, you decide, as they say.
My FEMA gasifier 7 21 11 remake- fast forward to 7 min 12sec for the sizzling tars in the flare tube. These are the some of the same type tars that ended up in my fluidyne filter pics here.
and that tar will make it to your engine no matter how much filtering you have done… talking from experience here as well… we live we learn. and we try to pass it on, to those that will listen
Hi Guys,
I had trouble getting a sustained flare on my third firing of my GEK type, so I decided to do another tear down. I’ll post all my findings but I’ll start with the fuel loading makeup and the shut down make up in layers starting approx 8" above the nozzles to the grate grill. Yes, it’s tedious, but a great learning tool. I’ve done several and found some of what I suspected and some that were real surprises. I enjoy the tear downs, they’re real progress.
Hope this helps you see an answer or two in your own quests.
Pepe
Pic 1 6"-8" above nozzles
Pic 2 3"-4" " "
Pic 3 1" below nozzles
Pic 4 At 4" restriction (line C imbert spec)
The bottom of the hourglass hearth has a flange that is bolted to a matching flange on the
bottom of the firetube thus the space will fill in with char. I filled mine with sand before firing.
Pic 5 Same as Pic 4 with small char carefully vacuumed out, we are on a “dig”. Note the starting briquets are now visible. I started by dumping briquets onto the grate and filling it up 2" above the nozzles. Good if you have bonafide wood charcoal, not good at all if you use made for hamburgers briquetts. See why in the following pics.
Pic 6 Briquets from Pic 5 removed to reveal another layer of them.
Pic 7 Briquets from Pic 6 removed to reveal another layer of them.
Pic 8 MOS
Pic 9 The grate support rod is exposed, so are more briquets. Note the fines starting to fill all the voids between the inert pieces called briquets. This causes the gas to go for the path of least resistance which is around the sides of the grate missing the glowing char. Tar and water go with it. I found some water in my normally dry cyclone. It’s no wonder a flare wouldn’t sustain. This load had about only 2 hrs burn time, then I shut down.
Pic 10 Unchanged briquets packed in like sardines. The briquets don’t seem to get consumed, just get in the way! This is not a design error. Poor choice of “charcoal” and subsequent clogging of the gas stream reducing hearth temp below cracking temps of some tars. These tars showed up well in my filter.
Pic 11 This is an important picture, probably the most from recent posts. I have 1/2"X1/2" stone screen for a grate. Note how and also important, “what” is in those squares for the most part. Look close, mostly crumbled briquet pieces put there on initial loading. I will replace this with a slotted rotating grate staying only 1/2" from the side walls. Write on the board, “I will never use briquets again” 500 times, Pepe!
Pic 12 This is all the small stuff I vacuumed out as I dug down through the layers. Really uniform stuff.
Pic 13 The same small stuff in a different container with all the unchanged "after two hours’ briquets. I can’t believe it! Let me save you some time off your life, don’t use briquets. A bag of the good stuff is not cheap, it’s just sure! And it won’t be there in the morning! lol.
Pic 14 More of the briquet blockers.
Pic 15 Grind off the tack welds, remove and rebuild grate using slotted grill. It was worth the effort to build this height adjustable, rotating, locking nut airtight, removable grate.
I was able to make my new slotted grate today. It has 2" more diameter than my old one, but still has an inch space around it. I wanted less but this was the only disk I had to use.
The second fix is the pressure cap leak. At first I thought the double gasket failed but found the welds holding the threaded studs were spotty and leaked out through the space around the studs.Note tar on base of studs.The double gasket worked.
I rewelded the studs and will replace the gaskets as well
UPDATE: 1/29/13 I scrapped this design as neat but over built. I see so many simple pan like covers that I’m going there.
Continuing on with the tear down, I disassemble the unit for inspection.
Pic 1- Components
Pic 2- Char in base with briquets that fell by grill sidewall space on first load up. New grill will have only a 1/2" space to sidewalls.
Pic 3- Air inlet 90’s removed in prep for single port air inlet. Port location to be determined after cyclone heat reclaimer is tacked in place. The 8" cyclone will fit inside the 10" tube heat reclaimer.The round gas outlet pipe was removed. Square flange bolted connections will be used instead.
Pic 4- T minus one to separation
Pic 5- I used a flat bar to gently pop the flanges apart so I could lift the unit off without disturbing the rope gasket. I was concerned about the integrity of the butt joint that I sort of layered together. It looks OK, no evidence of leaking.
Pic 6- A closer view of the gasket joint.
Amen on the briquettes ! I do not even use briquettes for meat when I cook because they have a bunch of filler ingredients, and make much more ash than real wood charcoal like Royal Oak or even Cowboy Lump that we have in stores here in NY. For startups, You would have a hot fire in no time using natural lump charcoal and throw in a few handfulls of stove chow (wood pellets) ever now and then because these little logs catch on fire easy and they turn into usable charcoal much quicker than natural wood. The little stuff helps dry out and burn the big stuff.
On your post from 18:19 today
I have questions about the [reduction bel | 4" restriction | choke collar, etc…] that is shown on photos 3-10. Is the purpose of this part to make all of the hot gas pass through the hot char and flow only through the 4" hole then to the grate ? There seems to be a pretty large gap directly under the nozzles along the burn chamber walls where this restriction part does not appear to touch the walls at the top. Does this part have a flange on the bottom or something that makes a seal so that the gasses flow properly through the 4" hole ? Looks like that would be a difficult design challenge to overcome if using nozzles that are not removable so they always stick into the burn chamber…
I would guess the grate would probably be OK unless the holes are too big (?)… the real problems seem to be above the grate - briquette fuel and any leaks around the 4" restriction hole.
GG Edit - I paged up a ways to 07/21/2012 - 18:14 and see that the restriction cone bolts in from the bottom and there is a flange, so everything should be going through the 4"hole if you build as good as you draw !
BTW… I have my eye on my JD524 snow blower for my first run - thats how we roll in NY, right ! Save all that pea sized charcoal for me because I would use it in my ammo can filter or even burn it in my lil gasser… I’ll even stop by to pick it up !
Hi Gary,
I’m in the Mooers, NY area a couple of miles from the Canadian border in the real upstate NY.LOL. How far upstate are you? When politicians refer to upstate NY, they usually mean 10 miles north of Albany. Lol.
I made some progress on my improvements list. I’ll end up taking all the sections apart(only have the burner insert to remove tomorrow) to inspect gaskets, etc and make the retrofits easier. I think. I need to hook up some rope and pulleys to pull it out and not to damage the gasket putting it back together.
I welded in the single port air inlet jacket, but will not cut the inlet until I have the cyclone(8" D) and cyclone preheat shroud(10" D) figured out and tacked in place. I then cut off the cyclone cone(13" L) and welded a 13" straight section to it. I’ll increase the cyclone outlet to 2’ D and add a 2" X 4" cyclone inlet that will bolt to the gasifier outlet.I hope.
Pic 1 Hourglass hearth with flange
Pic 2 Hearth bolted to bottom of fire tube, The sand on the floor came from around the hearth, all the junk you saw. Next time I will pack it more fully using damp sand. The fine sand really settled a lot during operation thus the charcoal stuff seen in the old pic.
Pic 3 Serendipity
Pic 4 I trimmed the excess and welded it in. I can’t believe I was so lucky.
Pic 5 The fire tube flange was part of the circle left from cutting the flange below it. Not planned just another good fortune!
Pic 6 My new 26" cyclone unit ready to mount in/with the preheat shroud. This should be a challenge. Can’t wait to tackle it!
Have to take a break now to finish picking blueberries before my honey gets home.
Pepe
I pulled out the burner insert and the rope type gasket looks really good, but I will replace anyway. Then I can set up for the cyclone and cyclone heat recovery adaption.
Hello gasifier enthusiasts,
I got a start on my 26" cyclone project today. I extended the square gas outlet 2" and cut out a couple of square flanges for the “to be bolted” interface. I hung the cyclone in the preheat recovery shroud to get a sense of its tangential line up with the gas outlet. The tangential inlet to the cyclone will pass through the preheat shroud and will be welded to it in the final assembly, which will then bolted to the gas outlet flange.
The preheated air from the 4’ stove pipe around the S cooler sections(see 7/21/12) will be drawn in at the bottom of the cyclone shroud and end up entering the single port air inlet(Pic 4 above) as well preheated air.
Hi Everyone,
First pic- I thought I would add 2 fins to each air inlet tube for preheating. They would both be welded to the inlet pipe and the burner wall. Is this robbing Peter to pay Paul or a good idea?
Second picture- Back to a full size dwg for an accurate placement view before I start the build. Most definitely not a waste of time. The inlet and outlets need to line up well for an easy airtight interface. The single inlet air intake will be last in the line up here. It will be sited between two of the air inlet openings with a vee diverter in the port opening.
I’m a happy man, I took my wife to the airport today. lol. What I’m happy about is her sharp eye out for me. She spotted this trailer in a yard about 15 miles into our trip. I stopped back on my way home. looked it over and bought it for $100 firm! It was on a small camper trailer frame. Drove it 3 miles at 35mph, stopped and felt the axle, bearings cool. A little faster and another stop, bearings still cool. Drove hws the rest of the way and it tracked very well. Great! It even came with a propane tank holder and a small wench, er winch. Sand blast, prime and paint, inspect, clean and/or replace bearings and grease seals, add lights and a new wiring harness, geez it’s spring again. lol! Looks like the old wood splitter was spared the torch! Thanks, babe.
Pepe
Edit. I didn’t do the fin thing on the air inlet pipes. I also didn’t do the air diverter, this one I just forgot! Trailer still waiting for some tlc. lol.
Hello Fellow gassers,
I finally got some time to work on coupling my cyclone to the gas outlet via square flanges.
First pic- shows the flanges match drilled and the gas outlet flange welded to the gas outlet. I jockeyed around the cyclone to get the line up of the cyclone inlet to its square flange. When the line up is good, tack weld the square flange to the cyclone gas inlet. Now you can remove it for easier welding. Note I changed the cyclone inlet cross section to 2".
Second pic-The foot print develops with some solid connections.
Lasr pic- Once the flange is welded, I will put the cyclone in the white tube, bolt the flanges mark and cut a slot for the inlet to rest in the shroud. The circular plate on the bottom of the cyclone will seal the bottom of the white tube. The white tube will get out fitted with an air inlet on the bottom (from the cooler shroud) and an air outlet at the top. coupled to the single port air inlet.
Ran out of argon/C02, manana.
Hi All,
I beat the sun to the shop this AM and was able to weld the flange to the cyclone inlet, mark and cut the slot in the shroud for the cyclone gas inlet and check it for alignment. It looks good. I’ll take the shroud off and weld in the air inlet and outlet before I close it all up into a single unit. I also cut the inlet and outlet curves on the 2" X 3" tube and test fitted them. They look good, now I can cut them ot length and install them. I have to remove the cyclone once more so I can make an inside weld on one side of the inlet and outlet. It may not look like it but in the third pic there is an even 1" space around the cyclone. The next to the last pic shows the plate on the cyclone sealing the shroud bottom and the air inlet tube for the cyclone shroud air preheater. Char collection will screw into the bottom of cyclone.
The last pic shows a straight shot from the gas outlet into the cyclone.
pepe
Lookin’ good Pepe.
You can pull heat out of the cylone as long as it stays above condensate dew point.
You could always use system surplus heat to open air dry fuel wood. being able to use all seasonal wet picked up wood is the real goal to a home stationary system.
More eveidence of my mantra of “Run With AN Engine Always”.
My new engine system keeps blowing my hat off from the exhaust pipe. One of my previous engines a diesel Listeriod would do the same. I’ve been ring seating in this newest Kohler V-Twin loading the genrator down with my two shop blowers. These things proven they can suck “Pick up a bowling ball”, pressurized a gasifier to flare and the impeller size and speeds are exactky the same size as we built the Victory Shop “HummingBird” suction blowers around.
The exhuast from this Kohler engine at it’s 2600 RPM loaded engine idle is out blowing my shop vacs.
Over on the YahooWoodgas groups Stephen Abadess has put up a plumbing fitting ejctor flare nozzle he sucks his gasifiers with that he is BLOWING with a shop vac. I am sure now the exhaust off of many IC engines at power and speed could power ine of these ejectors too.
Eliminate the blower assembly and motor comletly and simplify.
( There you go MikeL - a plug for the other groups)
Hi Steve, Your new unit looks like it could power a race car, but the Lister is a thing of Beauty for sure.
Thanks for the condensate dew point info. Perhaps I should put in a tee in the line so I could temper/close off the preheat air at some point.
Stephen Abadess- Now I remember where I saw that name.
Later, Pepe
Hello fellow gassers,
I made a little progress on my cyclone heat recovery/preheated air modification. Thought I’d share a few pics, the last of which is a candidate for fan housing find of the week. The ID is 8 3/4" and it is 4 1/4" deep. The feet can be cut off and moved around the corner to allow for a flange to mount the fan motor to. Yeah, it weighs 8 to 10 lbs. The cyclone is now (gulp) buried in the shroud. The shroud will get 2 drop down lockable leveling legs with half moon feet to help stabilize the unit. The 2" threaded gas outlet tube will get a union for cooler location options. Ideally the top of the cyclone shroud and the top of the SPAI housing should be even( didn’t have a long enough piece of tube left)… Next time. I’m onto forming puffer top and other RTV gaskets so I can put it back together. Getting closer to a refire, with real charcoal, of course.
The road to here ain’t been straight, but when this thing doesn’t react as it should, I’ve now got a pretty good idea of what to look for and where. The tear downs, along with knowledge of the steps of the process are a great learning tool and part of that 75% builder/operator learning curve.
Regards, Pepe
