New Mercedes Benz E230 wood gas project

Projects
#101

Haha it wuld be a comedy watching me work :smile: look at old Charlie Chaplin films and you wuld have a good comparason :smile:
Anyway, I have a system of some sort. I work on at least 3 projects at any time. I work on one untill l come at a dead end. then, l jump to a nother, while thinking about the first. When l come to a dead end of that one, l go at the third, thinking how to solve first two and so on. When l come back to the first project, l know every weld and cut l am suposed to do in advance, no time lost thinking between work. It comes at a price thugh, l sometimes dream about my projects, or eaven worse, cant fall asleap untill a certain problem is solved, daydreaming is a common phenomenom too :wink: Now, l am quite sure l am not the only person on DOW to experiance similar things :smile:

JO, so you are preheating the air with the cyclone! Gasifier (reduction) mantle too? Do show us some pics, l am ciurious how do you plan to finn the cyclone.

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#102

I do the same thing, I like working this way on many projects all at the same time.
Trying to shut down my brain at night and can’t does make for less sleep though.
Sometimes I just get up and work on one of my many idea projects. A lot of them are still on paper, like 40 to 50 of them.
It’s good to know that I’m not the only one that does this. I was starting to think I was weird or something. The SOMETHING, I aready knew about my self. Ha ha. DOW people are not just normal people, we are extra normal people.
Have woodgas will travel.
Bob

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#103

Nightshift right now. I’ll post a couple pics when I wake up tomorrow

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#104

Haha, I wouldn’t get much sleep with that amount of projects going on :smile:

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#105

Bob,
Kristian,

Same process for me. I have many times dreamed the solution to complex issues. Sometimes it wakes me up. When this happens, I get up and write it all down. Otherwise I may lose it. Interesting to know this is a common trait. My time is not my own, the RR owns me, very frustrating but my wife and children are definitely the beneficiaries. I keep plugging along with too many irons in the fire. It’s the best I can do at this point in my life.

Bryan

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#106

Bryan, I would have been done with all of my projects years ago, and been very bored. But instead now that I’m retired I’m busy and not planning on catching up.
Hang in there , I remember saying the very same words.
Your day will come too, to do the things you want to do. What you are doing right now is very important.

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#107

Filtration. The original plan was to cool the gas to about 100c (boiling point) and draw the gas trugh a paper/fabric/towel filter. For simplicity, l am starting to question that idea. I think gas comeing from the big surface baffle shuld its self be in the right temp region, for safety, l was thinking to direct gas trugh a pipe submerged in water. In case gas temp climb, water shuld boil and temper the gas.

Second idea is a water scrubber. The scrubber on the Chevy didnt work becouse sooty water droplets still found way to the engine. But! My two engine compartment cyclones shuld take care of this quite well, so l have no dubt that wuld work great, but, winter temps wuld make it useless.

Then, there is cool gas filtration. Max uses open cell foam and reports problems from it being driping wet and produceing the same problems l had with the scrubber. Allso, Max uses no hopper condesation so has much moister gas.
But again, l have cyclones in the end! I am leaning towards this direction.
But a question to you hopper condensing guys. Culd your gas comeing to the engine be concidered dry? How much water does your cooler collect? Without hoper condensation l got about 1-2l per hopper of water in the rails.

#108

Hi, Kristijan!

12.10.2017
Usually you have a brilliant perception of physical phenomena but now you seem to have had a bad night’s sleep…

When hot humidity-loaded gas is cooling down it will “eventually” come down to the dew point, becoming 100% wet. It has no straight connection to the boiling point of water. The absolute content g/m3 and temperature will rule where the dew point happens to appear (at normal pressure).

This only to motivate, a distancing position to have 100*C as any dry/wet “yardstick”.

Additionally, when starting up, with everything being cool and condensing
the warming up period is disastrous for an initially cold paper filter!

A well known case is DJ, as he (counter advise) thought that (cold at start) coolant water would dry the gas before going to a paper filter…

One opposite (taking advise) builder Fredrik Ek has never had any trouble with “structure clogging” of any paperfilter. Why is this?
After settling, full cooling and wet mattress chest cleaning the ALWAYS WET gas goes through a coaxial mantel around the outlet gas tube from the gasifier!

Fanning up lets the raw gas out directly after the coaxial heat exchanger, which gets automatically hot before ANY gas goes to the cleaning system and thereafter to the paper filter…

A cyclone would provide the same “first spot hot” opportunity!

A paper filter is the last of 3 – 4 cleaning stages, never earlier!!!

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#109

Hi Max, l had a great sleep tonight actualy :smile:

Its my understanding that if keeping the gas at constant 100c it doesent matter what water content it has. The water is in a gas stage and thus shuld have no problem passing the paper filter.
My towel sack filter had no problem working in wet enviroments so it doesent matter if gas gets below 100c, but its above that temperature that culd cause failiure to the filter. Thats why l thod of incorporateig a water boiling thermostate.

Problem is, while l have room in the trunk, where l can hot filtrate, l havent got much room in the engine compartment for a cold filter and reheat paperfilter and stuff like that…

1 Like
#110

Hi, Kristijan!
12.10.2017

Wetting paper does not ask for “flowing and dropping wet”; both wood and paper become “humid-wet” before they become “dropping wet”…

That “humid wet” is enough to destroy a commercial paper filter if the relative humidity stays long above 90%.

However cool and condensing wet the gas gets during the cleaning stages, there is always a guaranteed hot surface inside the gasifier cyclone mantel (if you weld a mantel on it) to warm it up when the gas is useful for the motor.

I see that 3 gas transport routes under the car bottom is much to apply,

but keeping the planned and built cooler to wet cyclones needs no modification.
But to get back and forth from the wet cyclones to the trunk could? go along the right side of the bottom?
From the wet cyclones along the right side of the bottom to the trunk and there to the gasifier’s hot cyclone mantel.
That could be partly drawn (straight parts) coaxially.
Or the reheated gas could go the shorter route along the left side to the motor.
Filtering dry gas is a nice thing to aim at…

1 Like
#111

Hi Kristijan, instead of water cooled, how about adding fins to the pipe going up to the engine with a flex pipe over it. With a air scoop up in front under the car with a adjustable air intake flap feeding the flex pipe. With a temperature probe in the pipe you could adjust the air coming to the engine double cyclones filters during winter or summer temperatures. The flex pipe could be insalated or not. Just a early morning 06:30am, having a cup of coffee thought.
I really like you secondary nozzle air not being preheated idea. That could help keep the gasifier running cooler on harder pulls with more air demand.
Bob

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#112

Just read what Max is saying. You could also heat the pipe up with the engine using heat off your exhaust pipe if needed in winter months.
Bob

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#113

Sorry Max, I know you think I should post on my own thread but I am on subject. My plan is to tap hot gas off from the gas line between the cyclone and the cooling pipes. Thenadd that hot gas to the gas line after the cooling and before a paper filter and then from that filter on to the engine.

3 Likes
Tom Collins' Gasifier
#114

Hi, Tom!
12.10.2017

That’s a half-breed, feeble way getting half way results. Under all circumstances the paper filter will work better if done properly. So does the motor too.
Less humidity = room for more oxygen.
Descriptions have been repeated many a time.

Complete condensation and complete reheating give complete results within reasonable effort.

2 Likes
#115

Yes Max what I am suggesting is a half-assed solution but is something more that most are doing. They are having burnouts in their intake manifolds because their process ends at a hay filter.
The quote above is very open door. What is “complete condensation”? A DP of 32 F or -460F? Or just zero moisture in the gas?
And complete reheating? Is there some temperature at which gas can not be heated any higher?
And yes finally, " with reasonable effort". If it could be done with reasonable effort I would think every one would be doing it like the hay filter. Sorry if I sound rude but as usual I read but don’t understand. TomC

1 Like
#116

Many good ideas to digest.

No dubt, Maxs way is best. If anyone has enough room (pickup bed) this is the way l wuld go. Woodgasing a sedan… its like threading a sewing neadle with bull rope sometimes.

Tom, didnt we discuss your idea before somewhere? I think its a reasonably good alternative to Maxs complete plan.

The thing is, Max says cool/condense the gas as much as possible. Then, slightly reheat the gas and send to the paper filter. This way clean, and dry gas is acheaved.
In your way, your main gas line will be cool and condensed, but wet. You will then add hot, but allso wery moist raw gas. This is unwanted becouse this is the moisture you will not get rid of.

Well l managed to make the condenseing hopper today, nearly finished, and the hopper lid seal so if all goes well, l might flare a bit tomorow!

4 Likes
#117

Hi, Tom!

12.10.2017
In this context, “complete” means whole the flow instead of part flow!
Reason again.

Making a coaxial heat-exchanger for whole the gas-stream is not a harder effort than welding a reheating mantle around a cyclone, or what?
Is it not reasonable?

I hope to read a reasonable answer on your page.

1 Like
#118

Thanks again for the words of encouragement Bob.

I know this is off topic, but I always very suprised and kinda sad when I have someone retire and they say “I just don’t know what I’m going to do now” and they’re being serious. I probably have 20 big projects to do right off the bat. Overhaul 3 or 4 antique tractors, convert them to woodgas, build fence, buy cattle, set up another sawmill and build, then run everything off grid with woodgas. Just get a little frustrated at times. At least I have the Dakota up and running great again, another big thanks to SteveU. I know one thing for sure, like you, I will never be bored when I retire…

Bryan

6 Likes
#119

Hey Kristijan, couple questions.Yes I did present this idea to you before. How is it that Max’s gas is cool and condensed and you say mine is cool and condensed ,but wet? Yes the small amount of gas I am adding will have moisture but a lot of heat. The moisture will raise the DP temp. slightly. The extra heat from the added gas will lower the DP more. The net result will be a lower DP. That gas will go through the paper with less condensation. Finally, what do you mean by a ‘‘condensation tank’’? TomC

1 Like
#120

Hi, Kristijan!
13.10.2017

I am sorry jumping in when not asked, but I hope to enable Tom to ask you the right questions…

So, Tom!

The dew point temperature of a gas(mix) is dependent on the amount of water it has taken up, on the brink of saturation/condensation
(100% saturation) and visa versa; the amount of taken up water determines the dew point.

If a gas at high temperature is satisfied with water it is saturated and cannot take up any further water at that temperature.

The gas at that temperature is “on the borderline” between wet and dry.

If that gas is cooled down, it immediately gets over satisfied = wet, and starts giving off condense. (dropping water)

Again, if a satisfied gas = 100% wet is heated, it immediately starts to dry
= its ability to take up more water increases. (if given)

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Now, if anybody starts to cool down hot gas from a gasifier, which is not satisfied with humidity, it eventually reaches down to a temperature where the satisfying (100%) is reached, and the gas gets wet, giving off condense.
The further the cooling goes, the more water is condensed.

If this condensing gas is warmed up, it starts to dry, and can take up more humidity…

Tom’s Question: Max’s gas cool and condensed / his cool and condensed,

but wet???

In fact both are wet as long as the temperature is declining from the condensation temp downwards!
This condensing continues at the same end temperature as long as
“new hot gas” continuously arrives to the condenser = cooler.

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“The extra heat from the added gas will lower the DP more. The net result will be a lower DP.”

Here facts go upside down!

The condensed gas gets an extra dose of high humidity gas, net humidity will increase…but will be condensed as long as the cooler is kept at the same temperature.

If the “extra gas” (hot) is added after the cooler, the net humidity percentage goes up…

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Now I hope Tom has a starting-point to put the new questions to Kristijan…

1 Like