Hi Til
according to you
what is the order of magnitude reasonable this loss of pressure?
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
it may sound as a stupid answer, but as less as possible. I don’t have personal experience here, but I can cite the book of Vesa Mikkonen.
He suggests 2 inch piping for engines up to 2 litres and 2.5 inch for engines 2-3 litres.
He also suggests that pressure loss over the dirty gas filter should not exceed 1 metre of water column.
Knowing this, I would guess that more than some centimetres water column in the piping should not occur.
Hope that is helpful for you.
Regards, Til
2 Likes
Til, are you sure that’s right?
1 meter of water is a lot. 40 inches. That’s the absolute maximum I’ve ever pulled on my gasifiers. I would have guessed no more than 1dm or 4 inches of pressure loss to be acceptable.
4 Likes
Hi Steve. You are more than welcome. I hope the drawing will help to better understand your system.
B.R.
Eddy Ramos.
Hi Steve, Nice progress and congratulations on joining the exclusive DOW doers!
As to your questions here is my 2 cents worth.
Forget charring pine cones becaruse they are a very low density material. Spend your time charing hardwoods for your gasifier.
Your 1.5 inch chargas hose should be adequate. As long as your hose diameter is bigger than the smallest opening in your carbureator, you will be OK. The four 90 bends with a hose that size should not be much of a problem either.
Watch the exhaust gas return AND water drip. Some of your best char gas will come when the charcoal is glowing white hot but that will also destroy your nozzle in short order. By applying exhaust gas, you can cool that hot oxidation zone down to a dull red. In other words, it can cool it down too much and your chargas quality will suffer. You want to use enough exhaust gas to keep the oxidation zone around a brigh cherry red. The water drip can also cool your oxidation zone down if too much. I’d recommend using no more than a drip per second. Better yet, replace the water with used motor oil. This will be reduced in the intense heat by reducing the oil into H2 and CO. If too much oil is fed OR the charcoal temperature is too low, the oil will turn into a vapor which will readily burn in your engine.
You should not need another valve to shut off the chargas from the carb when running on gasoline. While driving down the road on chargas, you should be able to turn on the gasoline and then fully open the air mixture valve. The engine will pull from the intake with the least resistance which should be through your car’s normal air filter.
If you can easily find a way to advance the spark, go for it. Chargas has such a long burn time, the earlier you can get it to burn (up to a point) the better. I feel this is a worth while project, assuming the car is not a computer operated system.
And Ramos, NICE WORK. I am amazed at how well your few lines, so well spaced and laid out, can capture the detail of these builds.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Gary in PA
5 Likes
Hi, Eddy Ramos!
25.4.2018
It would be so much easier if builders started by “listening to what the motor says”!
l X n X 3 = liters net gas per second!
l = liters displacement
n = thousands of RPM
3 = All unchangeing factors together…
4-cycle-,X filling-, X mixing-,X 1000, and all divided by 60
(from minute to second basis)
=================================================
Then transporting cool gas with less than 4 m/s
Flow
------------ = velocity
area
Flow
------------ = area
velocity
=================================================
Filter area:
l X n X ( 0,5 ----- 1 m2 )
Cyclone entrances will have about 2 X the velocity of cold gas,
if the entrance temp is 273* Celcius.
This for an easy planning start…
4 Likes
Hi Jan-Ola,
just controlled it twice, it is written in this way. He wrote “should never”, so this value is the absolute maximum.
He has a dry filtering system with nomex cloth, on which a dense filter cake of soot can develop.
But maybe he means after filter and cooler?
Anyway, the less pressure loss the better.
Regards,
Til
2 Likes
Hi Max:
What a honor getting a message from you!
Yes, I agree about builders “listening to what the motor says”.
My effort in drawing plans is for people that are’nt builders yet, and that they want to be (like me), and/or for people that are following a topic so I hope it will help to better understand each design.
A drawing worth a thousand words, plus a drawing can be understand in different languajes all around the world.
Truly yours.
Eddy Ramos.
2 Likes
Hi, Eddy Ramos!
26.4.2018
Your sketches are widely popular! Many of us are smiling of relief when your clear sketches make uncertain thoughts clear in an instant.
I hope some simple formulas can contribute to dimensioning gas passages in different parts of the system.
4 Likes
Hi Max!
You honored me twice now!
I completely share your concerns about simple formulas for gasifiers designs. I am in my first gasifier project, I am still rebuilding the truck that I am going to use for it (Ford Falcon Ranchero 1983, 3.6 lts = 221 cu inch). Once I start getting the feeling of it I will like to simplify this formulas. Is not going to be easy dough!! but I think that some precision can be sacrificed in order to get simpler formulas.
Truly yours.
Eddy Ramos.
Hi, Eddy Ramos!
26.4.2018
To “chart” the project starts with the traffic circumstances;
mostly open road (autostrada) driving 100 – 120 km/h or more,
or is it “town traffic” with slow creeping and small rushings?
If you have about equal parts of both, and want to “optimize” for both modes,
it will lead to a model like Jan-Ola’s build.
First, what is the maximum speed at “free roads”?
What I aim at is the top continuous RPM on open road with the highest gear.
You better start a new “page” for your project, stepping out of this Corolla site!
Thanks for your responses: Thierry, Til, Gary, Max, and others. By the way, Gary, when are we going to get updated photos and videos of your Ford Ranger project?
Thanks for your answers to my questions: Fines and pine cones are out. Gas line size and elbows not ideal, but adequate. Air mixture valve sufficient for change-over to gasoline. Slight timing advance or maybe no advance if using water drip. Also, a big thank you to all of you who work the formulas, do the calculations, and share the results of your experiments on DOW.
I went for my weekly test drive at the undeveloped industrial park this afternoon. I mastered the art of changing to gasoline and back to chargas using only the gasoline cut-off valve and air mixture valve—worked like a charm. Thanks, Gary for promoting simplicity. Without remote monitoring devices, it is a little tricky maintaining the correct reaction zone temperature, but I’ll get the hang of it after a while. The water drip definitely gives a boost. Perhaps I’ll give used motor oil a try, too. I actually bought a slow moving vehicle sign from Tractor Supply this morning before my test drive. Now I’m thinking about taking it back. Tried starting the gasifier with the engine instead of the blower, and again the engine stalled several times before it would idle. I’ll probably go back to using the blower. I tried advancing the timing, but couldn’t see any difference in performance. I noticed that the timing advances as the engine speed increases. Someone saw me in the auto parts store yesterday and said, “You are a bit out of your element aren’t you.” He was right. There is more to this timing thing than I understand. If timing is constantly changing and the need for timing change is constantly changing, I can see why an adjustable timing would be desirable. I might try it—we’ll see.
I love this quote from one of the early charcoal gasifier experimenters, perhaps you have seen it, too. D.H. Chaddock wrote these words in 1957 in an article describing his M.G. Midget project, “So much then for a series of experiments which, even if they did not add much to pleasure motoring, did at least recapture something of the pioneer spirit of the early days in which every ride in a car was an adventure and a trip completed without a breakdown was a triumph that is unknown to the present-day motorist.” He expresses my sentiments exactly. Happy motoring. . .
8 Likes
Hi Max!
Thank you very much for your concern and for your advise. I definitely will check on Jan-Ola’s build!!
My project will be both types of driving: city and road. The max speed dependes on each road, the max is 130 Km/h ( 80 miles/hour).
Now I am in rebuilding the truck, unfotunately what I got is/was in a terrible shape, I still have one more month to go. Once I actualy start the gasifier project I will open a new topic, for two reasons: To share my build and to get everybody’s advise for a better design.
Thank’s again.
Eddy Ramos
2 Likes
Hi, Eddy Ramos!
27.4.2018
No reason to delay starting your own site; after all, this is a charcoal site for the COROLLA!
You can present the pickup rebuild and all details that affect the comming piping and component placing without annoying any other “siteowner” and thier agenda…
I have already been “picked upon” for talking a few paragraphs to you on this charcoal site…
1 Like
Bruce,
I am planning to build a grinder similar to yours. The pictures and video are helpful. I have purchased some pvc pipe a plugged toilet flange and pipe cap. I was wondering if you could explain in more detail about the plumbing pipe and fittings you used for the grinder cylinder and how they were assembled. Also, the pipe I bought is foam core pipe. I wondered if that is what you used or a solid core (if there is such a thing. I just want to be sure that what I build is sturdy enough to do the job. Any details you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hi, Garry!
28.4.2018
Strange things happen! The site owner seems to be be reasonably pleased, but someone anonymously sends “flying cards” vanishing within a minute without leaving any traces, but with a text remarking on 3 messages addressed to one person as “private messageing”… strange, at least.
Are you referring to me, or Gary G? What you describe sounds very weird…
I received a private message from Steve with the same wording as his post above. I replied to that message.
Hi, Garry T!
29.4.2018
Yes, Garry Tait, I was addressing you.
And the weared thing is, that it was annonymous; like somebody trying to steer the exchange of messages and the going on conversation!
And leaving no traces behind.
Wow, that’s crazy, as I had made no comment, or PM.
What would be the benefit for someone to manipulate the conversation?
Very glad that you have identified this fishy business.