Thank you Michael,
I appreciate the welcome and thanks for the words of wisdom.
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Hello all, I just now read the suggestion of multiple replying in one post.
“Hi Tom, no need for “a” mentor, we all mentor each other here. Just start a build thread and start building. If you need advice before you build just ask. But first put out your end goals that you want to achieve; as mentioned we need to know, what engine size and desired output.”
Hi Matt, thanks for the information on how to start a build tread and the kind offer of help.
Thanks Robert, people here sure are friendly! I like this site already. I appreciate your reply and look forward to getting this project going. I will read through the book at least twice before I start acquiring materials.
Thanks again everyone, I feel less apprehensive about this project already!
Tom Butler
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Hello Mr. Tom
Sorry to be so slow replying to your post and welcoming you to the DOW. I echo all that has been said above. I think you are at the right place to learn and share about gasification.
Thanks Wayne
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Hey good, TomB,
I was worrying some I had come across as too . . . too . . . too
Onto practical small engine woodgasing.
Where BenP and I diverged a lot was his believing he could make stable enough gasification systems and IC engine controls to support AC synchronous electrical making.
Can be done. He did. Others did/have.
Requires a lot of additional woodfuel standardization; more gasifier automation; and especially IC engine fast-speed IC engine speed-load governing.
So actually a huge amount of his developing went into these areas.
Me? I’d had decades experiences with diy home DC electrical generating. Wind and micro-hydro have always been very power fluctuating. Multi-fueling small engines very RPM/power variable too.
DC electrical generating then your gas-quality and engine RPM can float all over and you’ll still have useable electrical power generated.
Put the woo-woo electronics in a good patented/warranted charger/controller. A modest easy battery bank. A good patent warranted inverter.
Downside of my way? Realistically 2-3 kWel DC generating system to keep it found equipment or under a couple of grand of bought new. 10-12 kW load demanding in spurts from the combined live output and battery bank when gone with DC motors loading. Refrigerators, freezers, lighting and well pumps this can all be had DC.
Class A moterhomes and live-on cruiser boats as systems examples. And the old RV’s as donor sources.
I have since simplified even off-shelf easier.
Honda/Yamaha inverter-generators.
Lots of vendor trailer/carts now using the Honda EF6500/7000 inverter-gnerators. Quiet. Quiet. And reliable. Worldwide parts availability. Printed paper service manuals. Even woodgas power derated that’d be 4000-5000 watts AC.
Only seems the expensive route until you realize then can use all existing non-heating electrical loads. Airconditioning. Cloths washer.
All heat making should be done using wood, or wood gas directly.
O.K. except lower wattage intermittent use plug-in’s like my drip coffee-maker with a non-warming vacuum carafe, the wife’s hair dyer and such
An actual 10-12 kWel continuous demand system will be a wood eating hog, I doubt an individual would keep up with fuel prep and delivery.
Large family; multiple-folk compound; church/school, O.K. with a dedicated power man/gal serving it.
Just been my experiences.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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Good Morning Tom Butler,
Ha! I have been unsuccessful finding some of the BensBook system users vidoes I wanted to link-show-you to. Although true that text and stills photo’s you put up Net never ever really go away. Data-bits intensive videos require someone to continue to pay the costs in some way for access.
I did find newer videos of both Garringer and Dobsons systems in-use and recent development building.
And of course a lot of APL/Gek systems.
All have been talked about, examined and contrasted here on the DOW.
PowerHearth; CPC; and even Mr Williams work seem to have fades away.
What is valued most here by the members is actaully building and works running a system. Any wood-for-power system.
As contributing member Matt Ryder said once you start fabricating set up your own build-it/using-it topics thread.
For engine/generator use up thorough 4 cylinder use the Small Engines sub-section.
Larger multi-liter engine generators use the General Discussion sub-section.
Hey! And PNW Douglas fir wood is a superior gasifier fuel wood! Quick energy release with super low ash.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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Hi Tom, I had had no experience welding but I built the machine from Ben’s book, though it took me over a year. When I began, I didn’t know about this group and I didn’t have a clear goal in mind. As I got closer to the end of the project, I decided I didn’t want to buy a 1 to 5 litre generator, but rather just use what I had, a 200 cc generator. This required significant internal changes to the design and fuel (charcoal with added water instead of wood) but after a lot of help from this group, I have got the Ben’s machine running the small generator, though I’m’ sure it would run more efficiently with a big engine. See link in above post, “First project - Ben Peterson gasifier”. This group has amazing knowledge. If I could build a machine, I’m sure with your experience and the group’s help you will have no trouble.
There are a few details I had trouble with in the book. The first one was the lid crossbar, described on page 104. The hinge end has to be narrowed so that the hinge brackets will not be located directly on top of the bolts in the removable plate, page 113. You don’t find out that the hinge end of the lid crossbar has to be narrowed until you try to weld the hinge brackets on to the removable plate, and you find the brackets come down directly on top of the bolts. You can see the narrowed end of the lid crossbar on page 115. It should have been shown on page 104.
Another detail: It would have been nice if the skid and especially the large square tubes, page 118, had been added AFTER the dome donut was drilled and tapped over the bottom of the tank, page 121. I found it impossible to do that drilling and tapping from the outside because the skid/large square tubes were in the way, so I did it from the inside of the tank, which was quite difficult.
Another detail was more complicated and related to the vertical measurements around the top of the filter - the handles on the filter candle and the pieces in the filter lid that press on the filter candle. I think my 100 pound propane tank was not exactly the same size as the one Ben was using, so several of my measurements had to be different than his, for mine to fit together. Check in advance that you have the exact same size hundred pound tank that is described in the plans.
Those are irregularities that come to mind. Overall, the plans are fine. Tig welding the stainless air intake pipe was the most difficult part of the project for me. I didn’t build the carburetor, but might do that in future. All the best.
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It’s okay Steve, I’ve been burned, ripped off etc myself. So I completely understand why you reacted the way you did.
I do want to make a continuous supply of 15-25kw. But as I was reading BenP’s book he states that I would need about one pound of dried wood per KWH of power. That’s a lot of wood, cutting and drying!
I’m perplexed as to which way to go now. I do have cheap power where I live. But I can double the profit with cheap or free electricity. And if your like me you’re probably wondering if its legal. Yes it’s legal and moral. No grow operation or other illegal or immoral operation. I’m being purposefully vague for obvious reasons.
I am still interested in building a small unit for emergency situations though. My power goes out here on a regular basis and it would be nice to have a back up supply. My darn power just went out a few days ago.
Maybe I will try and build a smaller unit like you have described.
Thanks for all your input.
Regards,
Tom Butler
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Good evening Steve,
Thanks for the info. I will do some internet searches on the systems you described.
Thanks,
Tom Butler
Thanks for your incites Greg. There always seems to be something left out of all designs. But at least that seems like a small one. Sorry for the long delay in replying. I’ve been extremely busy at work doing our annual inventory. I’m salaried so they can work me everyday, and they did, lol.
Thanks again,
Tom Butler
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For back up power, why not aim for solar with battery backup? Unless you are in the west coast, solar is probably by far the most reliable system, both for extreme longevity, and minimum maintenance. Even in the PNW, I would probably base a system around solar, and then branch out.
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I had 2 similar thoughts. One was simply build the battery storage with a Hybrid inverter but don’t add the solar panels and charge controllers at the start anyway. The comment that power is cheap but not stable made me think of that 4 hour backup would cover most of my power outages here. I do have a generator because it is that bad at my farm. I suspect the issue is cost.
But my second thought was something which has been discussed here many times before. If I wanted to generate power I would look long and hard at the charge controllers used by the solar and wind industry to charge batteries. I wouldn’t want to have to design something that would keep a generator running at a tight enough frequency control for modern electronics. But at 15kw continuous you are looking at a 30hp gas motor. I have a generator like that here it has a 1 liter engine and is a pretty big machine. So my next thought was find a PTO generator and an old farm tractor like an Allis Chalmers D17 something 50 to 70 hp gas and build a gasifer for it. You could run a generator plus get a tractor to do other work out of the same peoject. The idea being that the tractor might be oversized enough that it would be able to run on wood and provide a steady speed for the generator. That is actually on my long term project list. I know I need to install solar because I simply don’t have the bandwidth to add getting wood for fuel to my work load.
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Hi back TomB.
DanA. brings up the critical decision choice as far as I am concerned.
Current modern home living keep coming down to a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 energy use split-out.
1/3 annual personal/household energy uses for different transportation needs.
1/3 for the combination of in-home, shops, greenhouse heating and for many; air conditioning.
1/3 for the combination of electrical power for refrigeration, food freezing, lighting, communications/entertainments.
You can buy-out and be outside beholding for each and every mile/kilometer; horsepower/hour, watts/hours of this used.
Do a lot of conservation’s; equipment’s upgrading to cut these buy-out energies beholdings in-half; or even down to 35-40% of the average joe-blow fully culturally bought-in consumer household.
You are still 100% sheeple dependent for all of your used energies. Worse. As every new-god developer comes out with a newer, better, lower energy system-device; you then, always-looking are much more likely to $'s shell out chasing watts-savings.
I live where with modest home design and seasonal management we do not have, do not need, have never installed air-conditioning.
I have invested and payed-in to be able to 100% heat with our own home-grown wood.
So . . . already for most all of my life we are 33% more energy freedom independent than anyone else not doing this.
The few dedicated daily woodgas vehicle driving guys here can say they are 2/3rds Freedom Energy independent as most of them also home source and heat with their own wood. To go full off-Grid for their home use electricity would be straining their wood supply by one full measure again. One must be practical doing these things for real.
By my values this is much better than the greenest, use-least, Eco-Modern will ever achieve.
Now to 100% of the time replace my 1/3rd electrical refrigeration’s/lighting/communications-entertainments with woodgas made electricity would 2X the amount of annual wood fuel as I already harvest and store.
Just like these few woodgas vehicle driving and wood heating fellows are doing now. Ha! I got old, man. Once, was, I could, and did, these equivalents annual . . . not anymore. Again. One must choose practical-doing over woods-dreaming.
Do all three? Nope. I know of none doing this because of the actual personal sweat-hours in woods handling and multiple systems repairs and maintenance that’d take annually.
These are the realities. Period.
Sure. Sure. Many, if not most, like to brag about their accomplishments-savings.
Just now today for the second of six days I am going to take care of the chickens and livestock of a local library friend who is justifiably proud of his very energy saving small foot print super insulated earth sheltered house. He does heat/ventilate this on as little as 2 cords annually of Douglas fir wood from his 21 acres. Instant demand electrical hot water heater. All mini sized energy saver appliances.
He uses so little of big-hydro electricity that he see no need to ever invest in either PV solar or a woodgas-to electricity system.
Where is he that I am doing his animals duties for these six days?
Commercial jet airplane flew from Portland Or to visit friends in San Diego CA. So . . . 40 mile from his place in his up-cycled purchased used 2009 Toyota car to a different Portland OR friends house. 12 mile x2 for that friend to drive him back and forth to the Portland airport in her very super efficient Prius V.
And he does this commercial jet airplane fly-away to friends traveling at least four times a year.
He is miffed when I tell him that he actually uses at least three time the annual “planet killing CO2 emitting” transportation energy as stay-in-state me. This is the biggest of modern Eco-Greens self-lies.
Grid powers goes out: we finally have our 9.0 Cascadia event and he and his “friends” will have virtually nothing past 2-3 days. HE IS ON A STANDALONE DEEP electrical pumped water well. He refused to see the need to get a “selfish-use, polluting, planet-killing, personal engine driven generator”.
My grid power goes out an I am back to electrical using in 20 minutes with gasoline. Past 3-4 days of that, and I am into a 30-45 days stretch-it-out mode with on-hand in-vehicles and lawnmowers gasolines. Same could be done with tanked/stored propane. Looking past 30-45 days and I’d then be on woodgas-for-electricity and all scaled-back electricity using appliances.
Ha! Take a real long event with collapse of vehicle-inspectors-enforcers for me with my history to be able to actually vehicle woodgas. But . . . I have the shoulder-looking over; and equipments stored to be able to do that on the JD tractor. If ever, needs must driven.
Cascadia event and we will have a long Puerto Rico-like recovery time. Anything goes then.
So what I’ve told actual mountains-folk growers needing boo-cue lighting energy is . . . . .
Stay on Grid for your home electricity. Big-Brother Monitored with normal usage.
Shout out, and use propane for all of your home heating needs such as space, cooking, hot water heating. OK. That propane truck coming 3-4-5 times a year becomes a normal too. An expectation.
And if the income from your, “grow” caanot buy these bought outs . . . . you need to be doing somthing diffnert. Like working out for someone else.
Then . . . .later . . . switch heating in the house and shops to un-monitored wood stoves. Use the brought-in propane then for green house electrical lighting. It does make heat too at the engine generator! Engine exhaust CO2 growth enhancement boosting. Propane engine exhuast is super clean.
Only later as you have the make-more wood capability learned from the woodstove suplping; only then convert that greenhouse propane generator to woodgas.
The wood fuel you home-site grow, harvest and then use for your energy IN ANY WAY is what gives you your base Energy Freedom claim.
Nothing else cuts any of your energy beholding out ties.
But hey. This is me. MY values system.
I only value those who are DOing DIY energy for themselves in any way as having accomplished anything of value.
Edison, Tesla never actually made their own heat or their own used electricity. Not even their own food or meals. And neither does the Gates’s, Musk’s, or Job’s.
George Westinghouse did these. The current actual DOers do these sweating freedoms too.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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Start out with your inverter set up and make it as universal as possible. Do not use lead acid batteries, you can get LifePO4 cells cheap and set them up for any voltage you want.
You can then start out with a simple engine direct coupled to an alternator and then grow the system from here. Id just stick with a 12 volt system. Yes going higher voltage is more efficient. But that comes with limitation and drawbacks. Its not worth the little bit of efficiency you gain.
The biggest issue going larger is the higher you go the more your batteries will cost. This is because when you hook up batteries in series you gain nothing in capacity. When you hook up in parallel is when the capacity will grow per bank added.
So for instance, you have 8 of the LifePo4 cells running at 3.2 volts @ 8 amp hours. and you build 2 banks of 4S out of the 8 you then will have 16 amp hours capacity. If you build this for 24 volts you would then have a single 8S bank but only will have 8 amp hours capacity.
Here is my cheap 12 volts system, Inverter is a 12 volt 5 kW Harbor Freight special, coupled to four 4S LifePo4 banks giving me 32 amp hours. The BMS I went big with a 200 amp so I can add a ton more cells later and use this single BMS.
The generator is the prototype for the VersaFire system. This has a 212 cc predator engine direct coupled to a GM alternator. It came off an 5.3 LS motor. It is important that you use an internally cooled alternator if you go direct couple as the pulley fastener nut will be eliminated. You can go with belts but if you drive it hard belt slipping may be an issue and this is more complex to do. Direct coupld is 1:1 and this is about perfect for the 212 cc engine, you could go with a 200 amp alternator even The cool thing about a DC generator you have the option to run it at low RPMs or if you want more power you simply crank her up. You dont have this option with AC and you can get much more out of a smaller engine as you can run much higher than 1800 rpms. This will be even more important if you run with wood gas.
From here you can then add a gasifier system along with wind or solar.
The control box is my auto gen start start system. This monitors the battery bank and self starts and shuts down the generator automatically for me. When the battery needs charged. This is why this has a starter / generator beneath the alternator; as this is used for starting and will be very robust for automated wood gas start ups. No worries about duty cycle with this starter.
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headway cells? What BMS did you go with?
Yup I got them from battery hook up. They are second hand at 10 bucks a cell I thought they were a good deal. This bank here has more energy density than two 1000 cca deep cycle batteries that I replaced. I think there is a bad cell in the bunch as well. So it will probably do even better once it either balances out or I replace that cell.
I got the BMS off of ebay,
Link to the Headway cells
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Steve well said. I am in the 1/3 who heats with wood group myself. I really love the warmth of a wood stove and the knowledge that I filled my shed with wood myself.
But I give Edsion a little more credit it amazes me that he designed and built batteries which are still in usage today a century after he built them. Sure they have issues but those are amazing.
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Not to high-jack this thread too much, but I am not sure I follow your logic, Matt. (also I really like talking about batteries 
)
If you start with 8 batteries, you are not going to change the storage capacity by re-configuring the voltage - since what we are really talking about with battery storage is energy - or Watt Hours. The 8x 3.2v 8AH batteries are going to store 204.8 WH no matter how you wire them. The loss in capacity is made up for by the gain in voltage. What you get out of bumping your system up to 24 volts (for example) is a reduction in the amount of current you need to supply for a given load. If we are talking about a fixed number of batteries, the efficiency gains really only come into play with the wiring. The extreme example is; say you want to run a 1200watt pump at the bottom of a 200 foot deep hole. If you are going to do it on 12v, you are pushing 100amps, and not even 4/0 cable is going to cut it.
I think in the past 12v maybe had a slight advantage in that there were more products readily available in that voltage, but I feel like that is not really the case anymore. (I run 24 volts, and it is not hard to find appliances, pumps, LED lights, charge controllers and inverters that are set up for that voltage - and sometimes even both). About the only thing that I have not seen is a 24v phone charger, and for that you just need a DC-DC converter.
Anyway, to weigh in on Tom’s actual questions, I am now curious why you want to make 15-25kw? That is a LOT of power. If you need industrial quantities of power, the electric company is going to be the cheapest route. For a small backup to keep your beer cold until the power comes back on, woodgas would work great, and is a lot of fun.
@SteveUnruh, I like your division of power into thirds. Someday I would like to have the full Wooden Triad, but I still burn dinosaurs in my car
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Good point Carl, I guess I cant argue with Ohm Law. Yeah you are right. So there must be something else going on with the 48 volt inverter I have. When I switched from that 48 volt inverter to 12 volt I was getting 3 to 4 times the run time. It maybe that inverter is consuming more as it is a 12 kW inveterter.’
’
However, 48 volt vs 12 volt everything is much more expensive. for 48 or is non existent. For instance to build that DC generator, You could find that alternator in just about any junk yard and they are around 100 bucks new. Your going to have a much more difficult time building this in 48 volt. I do have a permanent magnet 48 volt alternator but there is no way to regulate its voltage.
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