Off Grid Batteries

Sean,
This is good news. A safe, simple battery chemistry using common materials, a critical problem solved! :cowboy_hat_face:

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I hope someone smarter than me posts how to build one of these. I donā€™t think I could figure it out, but Iā€™m pretty good at following directions (despite what my wife says).

GC

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I started reading the paper they didnā€™t really have a good detailed methods and procedure portion. To get their results, they used an SVO cathode. Silver vanadium oxide (SVO) is a vanadium oxide bronze that can be used as an anode material in batteries.

The copper they used is Copper(II) oxide (CuO). Also known as cupric oxide, this compound is a black solid with a molar mass of 79.54 g/mol, a melting point of 2,419 Ā°F (1,326 Ā°C), and a density of 6.31 g/cmĀ³. As a mineral, itā€™s known as tenorite or black copper.

They made a slurry then cast it, then electroplated the zinc on. but didnā€™t really go into details of the process. I am just assuming they took powder got it wet and cast it, and possibly pressed it to get like a wafer, dried it to stabilize it, then electroplated it with zinc.

I am actually interested how well a carbon cathode would work.

Because of the aqueous nature of the batteries when they start forming dendrites they produce hydrogen and use up all the water.

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I donā€™t know if the silicon/graphene/lithium batteries will be any good for home storage but mobile applications, they sound promising. Apparently he was quoting 1000 charge cycles which is low, and they hold about 20% more charge but the storage speed/chage time is up to 10x over ā€œstandard lithiumā€. And they are claiming they will be on parity with the cost of lion batteries when they scale.

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There are some interesting sodium batteries out there. They should end up well under the cost of lithium sodium is just super cheap and abundant. Lower energy density is pretty much a given though as sodium is below lithium on the periodic table.
But what interests me is the reporting that they lack thermal runaway problems with some lithium and also lack the cold sensitivity of lithium. Iirc they shouldnā€™t suffer the electro plating problems of lithium if it is too cold when charged or maybe the temperature that happens is just alot colder. It was a while ago i dug into sodium. But i came to the conclusion that we are probably 5 to 7 years from when pattern laws expire and we see real price drops.

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The silicon graphene batteries have a distinct size and weight advantage so mobile applications like cell phones to EVs. Which is a 15 minutes to charge a phone instead of 2 hours.

natron has some Sodium batteries for sale but you have to be a commercial entity like a datacenter to get them. Maybe farm would work. They donā€™t sell to consumers.

"BluePackā„¢ Critical Power Battery

Designed for 48V to 480V critical power applications, the BluePackā„¢ Critical Power Battery offers unparalleled safety along with the highest power and longest life on the market.

Full recharge in 15 minutes or less, ready immediately

No settling or thermal waiting required

Non-flammable chemistry and construction

>50,000 deep discharge cycles

Twice the power of lithium-ion"
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Thanks guys. Spent a few hours on the sodium. It seems like the are mature and available. Time for some experiments.

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The ones I posted looked really good until it said they didnā€™t get UL approval so they arenā€™t for sale to consumers. :slight_smile:

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Found this one.

They all come from China. We have some sort of golfkart. Nice victim to start with. We can use the on board inverter for 230 v and when it stops there is still enough power left to drive home. Very interesting product, sodium batteries. It might be a game changer. We will see, hard to beat lfp at the moment.

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They donā€™t all come from china. The Natron Batteries are made in the US with slightly different technology. Which their patented technology gives them 50k charge cycles. However I donā€™t know if you can get your hands on any. And what I am unsure of is whether they developed the patent or they are licensing the patent in the US.

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LFP is past the copyright/pattern monopoly laws. We probably have something like 5 years before Sodium batteries get to that point at which point we will see the real advantage in lower cost raw materials.

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Apparently Natron does have their own patents so it isnā€™t the same tech that CATL is using to manufacture their batteries even though they both use prussian blue. It looks like natron uses multiple versions of prussian blue in the manufacturing process, given all their patents. (Natron does have a full research lab.). Their batteries arenā€™t UL listed (which is a 100k+ dollar process with underwriters laboratory to certify it as not-dangerous for consumers. You have to be a business to buy them, and I guess if you were inclined you could also become a distributor.)

Northvolt and Altris in Sweden also have their own technology that is separate from CATL as well. I donā€™t know how it all stacks up for price performance against each others tech. I just hadnā€™t seen anything like what Natron has advertising as far as performance. It could very well be pricey as well.

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Chemestry is kind of the same, so is voltage levels. That is one problem with lfp, the flat charge discharge curve. Sodium has a wide range, wider then most inverters can handle. Looked at Northvolt too, but nothing available at the market. Catl sells for 50% more then lfp, not bad for a new tech. Inverters will follow. Take a look at Victron and then at Sun Deye for example. Victron is around for ever and knows his way around. Sun is new and steps in right at the top. And send Solar Edge down from the top, those guys just dont know what to do. Batteries will go the same, what is new today is old tomorrow. Wait a little wont hurt your wallet. Sofium is the way to go, thanks guys.
Just playing a little overhere with ancient lead acid, lfp, victron, sun deye. Goal is a 100/150 kWh battery bank filled with woodgas generator in winter :grinning:

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It is close but I donā€™t think it is the same. Not with 50k lifecycles, but you can also achieve that by disabling and enabling batteries. Natron mentioned something about with their prussian blue mix, they had achieved less resistance for ion movement which would make it faster and give it longer life so it would work that way as well.

You might be too small for natron, it looks like 250kwh is their only battery size. It is 480v which I assume it is 3-phase only.

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Probably the most cost effective at that range is a salvage yard a couple of EVs that a tree jumped infront ofā€¦

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Yes. Thinking about that. Or a Model 3 next year. Dirt cheap. But no hobby Bob that plays with the software. A lit goung on with Nissan Leafs.

2019 was Model 3 best sold car in our country. Next year the market will be really flooded with cars exit the lease.

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In our country, they refurb them and send them overseas. I donā€™t know what they do in Europe.

The Silverado EV RST has a 200kwh pack as does the Hummer EV. Both would probably fit a gasifier, and I think both support vehicle to home. :slight_smile:

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Well, we will find out soon enough. We sold ours in januari and maybe I buy one back next year :grinning:. Market wil be saturated by then.

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Auw, way out of my league. And waste of money 118.000. Lost in five years. If I had that kind of money I would spent it another way.

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Here all this time, I thought you were the master of tax deductions. :slight_smile:

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