Mike I did notice the copyright. They are an importer from China. The factory in China has been making them since the 70s when excite bought the patterns up in the USA and promptly stopped making them in order to sell more lead acid go figure almost like they like selling you new batteries. From what little I have found online the Chinese company still makes them nickel seems to have been really high in value for a while back around 2008 I think so I sort of wonder if that is why the dropped out of sight in the USA.
I will keep looking into it but right now it looks like the best deal.
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4/25/2016
Rhodes Carter - System Designer & Technical Sales
Iron Edison Battery Company
(720) 432-6433
[email protected]
Keep in mind that the Nickel Iron battery has a 11,000 cycle life. Discharging it 80% on a daily basis, it will last over 30+ years. Lead acid batteries have about 1,000-1,500 cycle life, and only 30% depth of discharge. Nickel Iron can be 1.5 - 2x more expensive up front, but the 30 year total cost of ownership of Nickel Iron is about 1/4 of a lead acid solution because youāre not replacing the batteries every 5 years.
As a general rule of thumb, Nickel Iron will cost about $1 per usable kWh of capacity. ie: a 10 kWh usable capacity battery will be around $10,000.
Nickel Iron will support 80% depth of discharge for 11,000 cycles, or 30+ years if discharged daily. Nickel is a flooded cell, so they need to be vented and watered periodically.
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The leakage used to be considerably higher like 25%/month. They offgas hydrogen, so you need a well ventilated area, and they are subject to freezing. I thought the roundtrip efficiency was closer to 60%
They are tanks though. They were used a lot in military and telephone operations because they would last a long time, and they can be abused and fully discharged without harm. There are still some functioning batteries that are like 100 years old now. However, they have been replaced with other battery chemistries now.
i donāt know how much nickel is, but the patent ran out of them a long time ago. You can literally make them.
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Sean I have seen anything from 60% to 80% for round trip efficient. From what I read it depends on how fast you discharge them and charge them. The harder you push then the worse the numbers because you turn them into hydrogen factories which ofcourse takes electricity. From what I have read the trick is to keep the current draw lower same with most batteries.
As to leakage I have also seen those numbers all over the place and the one explanation I read was if you donāt use distalled water when you fill them the leakage gets worse. I sort of look at panels as cheaper then replacement batteries.
I did think about trying to make them as you said nickel and iron but the issue there is 2 fold one beating Chinese manufacturing for cost doesnāt seem likely to me and second if it is going in moms house she wants it bought from a factory so she can get the 30% federal tax write off and 2 she wants to know it wonāt effect her insurance being home made.
I have never used these batteries before only heard about them second hand. But one interesting thing is importing them is not to hard but try to import lithium batteries in bulk you might as well just decide to pay Tesla to come and setup the power wall. Lithium is listed as a fire hazard which ofcourse they are. But it changes the import from class and you pretty much canāt do it without a business need.
They will be in my basement at a constant temp of 50f so freezing isnāt an issue. But from what I have read you mix the electro light based on the temperature and you can mix it for pretty cold weather. I also read where Edsion claimed that if they freeze they will be fine once they thaw out. I do wonder if the modern case would be fineā¦ but I think there is probably enough air gap to save it.
I debate setting the system up so I can pull half the batteries in the summer for a haying tractor.
I am looking at a big system 10 to 15kw. Depending on a few thing for the array.
I will be using 2 or 3 of the Schneider MPPT 60 150 charge controller. The more I looked af the larger unit the less since it makes to me.
I am also looking at 2 of the hybrid inverters so I can run an electric oven.
CONEXT XW+ 6.8 KW 120/240 INVERTER/CHARGER, 48V
I just really like the idea of batteries that will last and take abuse. Like everyone I am sure I get really sick of replacing lead acid batteries. I need to buy 3 of them right now. I guess that comes with having 5 tractors 2 cars and a pickup truck and probably 3 lawnmower batteries in things here but it always seems like I am fighting with dead lead.
Anyway right now part of me thinks panels are cheaper then replacing batteries every 10 years or so. As far as I can tell Ni Fe is the only chemistry which will stand the test of time.
I am looking into having them shipped directly from the factory in China. Looks like it will be about half the cost of buying them from a distributor in the USA. I have never actually tried that before so it is interesting to say the least.
Oh on the leakage issue I forgot to say I figure it is a mute point on a off grid solar system because they will be cycled daily anyway so it would have to be leakage in 12 hours to be an issue.
From what I recall the difference between the chinese manufacturer and the US distributor is the hardiness/quality of the case. I think there is only 1 part-time manufacturer of the batteries themselves left in the world.
I am not sure I would want the hydrogen off-gas in my basement unless it was well ventilated.
You might have issues finding a charge controller that works with them too. They just arenāt that popular.
For longevity, they are probably about the best on the market.
iron edison sells all in one systems . partners with Outback power .
I did not want nickle iron they cost too much . I did not want lead . It was my only option .
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I plan on building a vent lab style hood over them. I donāt think it will be that hard but it is still in the planning stage. I am thinking of the old lab hoods as a basic design with an exhaust fan controlled by the charger and the inverter.
The Schindler charge controller has a custom mode I have been looking at the setting and think it can be set to match the batteries.
I think there are 2 factories in the world which make NiFe batteries the big one is in China they also make NiCd which is probably most of the market. I think there is also one in Russia as well. But I am not sure on the Russian factory if it is still running it is small.
I think you might be thinking of Zap I think it is in Montana who takes old batteries apart and repairs them and repackages in a new case. But their batteries cost more then just buying new from Iron Edison which imports from China.
I think I have read too much on these the last few days. Lol
I just keep coming back to the replacement costs of the other battery types. Still kicking it around in my head. Whatever I do will end up in the basement because it gets -30 F here in the winter and I donāt want to put batteries in that. Anyway that is my delima.
Henry you pretty much hit the nail on the head
That is why I am looking into buying factory direct. The list price from China is less then half the Iron Edison price. Still waiting for the quote to know the actual price including import taxes. From what I see the list price for NiFe factory direct is lower then AGM lead acid. Which is probably the other battery I would use as it solves the outgasing issue. I have never has any luck with flooded lead acid.
I put my batteries in meat locker . I am still trying to get system running .
Dan the schneider, midnite solar and outback charge controllerās custom settings can be tweaked to match the NIFE requirements. You will probably have to adjust the inverter settings for high voltage since if I remember right the absorb is higher on them. For venting all the charger have an auxiliary relay in them adjustable for voltage. Midnite and outback have a 12 volt relay regardless of battery bank voltage but Iām not sure on the schneider. Sometimes its a dry relay and you have to provide battery voltage to themā¦ The batteries only start producing hydrogen as they approach full so you set it for that. We are code required to install them in a box with a minimum 2 in pvc vent to the outside with an approved powered fan. We are obliged to have a 2 inch intake vent at the bottom of the box pulling its air from the house or outside. Local codes vary of course.
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Maybe you guys already hashed this out somewhere, but Iām thinking of using 48 volt fork lift batteries for my solar. Looks like best durability bang for buck because of thick plates along with established protocols and additives. Your thoughts?
I looked at them they are lead acid and really heavy. I think new you can buy AMG for about the same cost and not have the outgasing issues of flooded batteries. I am actually looking at importing NiFe directly from China.
I got a quote for 200 Ah 40 cells for 48 volts and the price was $109 per cell shipping included with a liftgate delivery to my driveway.
I am now waiting on a price on the 500 Ah batteries. The 500 Ah are right around 75 lbs and that is about all the weight I want to move around alone and be responsible for tipping over and draining every 10 years for the rest of my lifeā¦
Most people I have heard of buy used forklift batteries I am of the general opinion that they replaced them for a reason most companies are cheap so I figure you get really heavy batteries you have to replace in a few years and that probably have sulfation issues lowering their charge efficiently which means you have to push in more power to charge them. I havenāt done the forklift batteries myself just read alot about them.
Oh I forgot to mention when you import factory direct from China to the USA you have to pay the tax that is the one thing not including in the price and I donāt know what the tax will be.
I definitely like that price if are it includes delivery and taxes are not an issue. Keep us informed. How many watts are you producing?
Bruce I am in the process of designing a system to take the farm off the grid. I run a 14kW daily avg here. I got several quotes last summer when I was hoping it would be a roof mounted system but the angle of my barns and pitch make it as late as 8 AM before they get sun. So in the end it is much better to do ground mount and I do have the space for it.
Anyway the quotes all came in for a 10kW system because they are based on only 2 hours of full sun in the dead of winter. I am considering up sizing so I can replace my gas stove and dryer.
I am still trying to understand what the load is for a geothermal heat pump. If I could use it to replace my gas hot water and oil heating it would free up about $3500 a year in oil and gas bills. I will be doing the install myself and have the equipment to dig the trenches for geothermal loops. I also have perfect ground for digging. At least 10 feet down by the house is pure loom no rocks.
Anyway right now I am planning.
At my last house I had a Tarm wood boiler with a 700 gallon storage tank. I keep wondering if I can put in a massive hot water storage tank and heat it with a geothermal heat pump to time shift the night heating to the day when the sun is shining. 700 gallons would hold my other house for about 10 hours. I keep wondering if a massive thermal mass wouldnāt be cheaper then batteries and effectively just more storage all winter. I am thinking really big like a 5000 gallon tank built into a room in my barn which is about 70 feet from the house. With a second smaller tank like a hot water heater in the house. I could insulate the heck out of the barn like R60 and the waste heat from the tank would keep the room above freezing plus maybe even give me a warm shop and a place to keep the batteries and control gear out of the house. It would mean moving my garden to put the array down the edge of it now but that isnāt the end of the world it would just move a little further back I think.
My long term goal is to make an electric tractor for haying and this is another reason putting it in the barn looks good to me I could work in a way to hook the tractor in as well for charging and more winter battery storage.
Oh Bruce you probably already know this but the batteries you buy for a solar system also qualify for the 30% tax credit. I forget the correct term but 30% of the sale price comes directly off your federal income taxes. Not lowering your taxable income but the tax itself. The geothermal system also qualities for the same tax credit.
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Pm me if you want to talk about it but does your utility allow net metering? If not I would still recommend a grid zero option. Phase them out as you build up capacity. Iād have to have consumption loads and monthly breakdown but the gist is the largest grid connected net metered system they allow with the balance of your load requirements taken up with second off grid section. Minimal battery for outages dump load to heat or correctly sized heatpump. Solar electric is replacing most of the solar thermal elements out there because of cost reductions.
I picked up 3 X 30,000 BTU copper solar water panels for scrap price ($200 for three). I plan on using them on the house to heat my homemade 500 gallon water tank. I got 6.5 Kw of electric panels for $1200. They will go on the barn. I probably wonāt get to either of these projects this year, but it is fun planning for it. I almost bought a bunch of old NiFe cells last year. Still looking for batteries.
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Dan, have you read reviews on made-in-china.com I did a couple of times, all the reviews were bad, you may want to check it out. I was looking for iron batteries also.
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Frank I have just barely started looking into it but as far as I can tell made in China just gives you contacts with the manufacturer. There are also distributors on there. I read different websites for about a day on buying direct from China. Not sure how I feel but when i used the link from made in China I got a quote from a factory rep and it is all dealing with the manufacturer not the website. From what I read make sure you research the company and you should be ok. In this case there is only one factory.
Henan Hengming Fengyun Power Source Co.,Ltd
No. 8 Xinhui Road ,Xinxiang City, Henan Province,China 453000
I need to double check but I think that is the actual factory in China which builds the batteries.
Thanks for the word of caution I need to keep looking into it before I pull the trigger for sure.
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There is a small list of nickel iron batteries suppliers listed here:
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
Zapp is made in Montana but are expensive. They claim well over 50 year life with electrolyte changes.
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm
If you find the answer to that let us know. I was trying to figure out if we could add solar thermal to the heat pump. I never found the answer.
The people you probably want to talk to are at a company called dandelionenergy.com They are an offshoot of google and operate in upstate NY. You have a unique enough situation, they may be interested in it as an R&D type of project.
What I have seen for time shifting with geothermal on the industrial scale, is they are pumping the hot water back through the loop. But that is superhot water.
Time shifting for home geothermal might not really work well. The cost is in operating the pump, the compressor and the fan. All of which you would still be using.