Hi everyone, I’m a newbie when it comes to gasifiers, and I have a question I’d like to ask you all (English is not my first language, so it might sound a bit rough). When I was working on a project before, I came across a simple article about gasifier sizes (in kW), their uses, and costs. For example, a 10kW was listed as a small-scale gasifier suitable for self-sufficiency in rural areas, with a cost of around X dollars… something like that (the numbers are just an example, I don’t remember clearly). Now, I want to carefully read that article again, but I can’t seem to find it. Does anyone have relevant information on this? I would really appreciate it!
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most gasifiers are built for their intended use. The cost varies as for materials used and labor to assemble You used a 10kw as an example… now that depends on fuel you are going to use… wood vs charcoal are 2 different types of gasifers… and cost is more for a quality wood gasifier to a charcoal gasifier… I am building a charcoal gasifier now equivalent to a 10kw… and not counting my labor and using a lot of used materials I will have in the neighborhood of 1200-1500 invested… labor and NEW materials and design
are what drive up the cost.
A Ben Peterson or Wayne Keith gasifier has about 300+ hours labor to build.
Also if you don’t use a proven design…you will be just throwing money away trying to learn from other people’s mistakes.
Dennis Pecynski
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Welcome Alice.
Like Dennis said, Most gasifiers are build for specific applications. For instance there is no set standard for a reactor that would provide enough fuel for say a 10 KW generator. Much would be determined by the material you were using to convert into wood gas. Not sure what the article you mentioned was but if you research this site you will find that someone has designed and built a gasifier to fuel just about every type of power plant from generators to cars, trucks, and busses, log splitters, saw mills, you get the idea and self sufficiency is the primary motivation. What was the project that got you interested in wood gas. Specific questions bring specific answers.
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what you will find in the real world, is it isn’t that simple. Any gasifier you buy or build, requires a specific fuel source and a more uniform material size to work at it’s optimal capability (or sometimes work at all). Which to get it sized approprietely, make take additional equipment or time/energy.
If you are looking to power say a rural farm to provide electricity, in the long term it is better in most cases to install solar plus batteries, then use the gasifier to provide a backup source of power. If you don’t have the money for solar, if you can build a gasifier for energy needs until you save for batteries and then add solar.
In order to get the cost issues worked out, most of the time, you have to be able to utilize existing available resources, equipment, skills and knowledge. There is a large variance.
It also doesn’t work like petro as the energy density is lower. and it isn’t necessily as easy and flip a switch and it all magically works.
It just isn’t as easy as looking at x dollars vs output because it can be a lot of work.
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Thank you all for your replies! It’s really great to wake up and find responses right away!
Yes, I understand that building a gasifier can affect the cost and the final product depending on various factors. However, the difficulty lies in convincing others. Someone claims that gasification is just a water gas reaction (which I am quite unhappy about), and he believes that one simple container is enough, without needing many extra components (I don’t deny that ‘simple is best,’ but there are still many other issues).
I think he’s asking for too much. What I need is some information to convince him. A simple container can hardly achieve automatic continuous feeding, not limited by fuel source, rapid reaction, clean gas production, and the ability to process large amounts of raw material quickly. I think I just need some evidence, such as the size of the furnace and the approximate amount of raw material it can process. (This part also confuses me. His requirement is the amount of raw material processed per hour, not the gas output or heat power per hour. Maybe it’s just my limited experience, but I usually see the latter.)
By the way, he’s quite proud and considers himself an expert because he claims to have built a gasifier once that can produce 20 kilograms of charcoal per hour. This also troubles me, as convincing him is quite a challenge."
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Hello and welcome.
You will have to be more specific. What fuel are you aming at? If its charcoal then yes, you can make it in one container. Wood, no.
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Okay. I think there is a disconnect in the terminology, either translation or knowledge. He is talking about making charcoal, which you can do in single container, and you end up wtih charcoal/biochar and a bunch of heat or there are ways to cool off the gases in a distillation column, and there are still burnable gases left.
What we are considered wood gasification, is take the burnable gases and put them into an engine, which technically isn’t as broad of definition as it could be interpreted.
The chemical process is the same except what we are doing is taking it to the next level and consuming the charcoal as well. The methods are a little bit different. and in two distinct parts if you use what we call a charcoal gasifier, since you would be using his process, then taking the charcoal, you make and turn it into a gas you can use in an engine.
There are a couple of threads on how to make charcoal, You technically don’t need a container, you can just dig a pit.
As far as consumption per hour, is he looking to get rid of material? He definitely wouldnt be the first to try and get rid of waste material like brush that he wants off the farm. And if that is what he is aiming for, then biochar may be a better option. It is basically charcoal, you end up adding to your field to improve production. Usually adding it to say a compost or manure pile to pick up nutrients and bacteria.
However, in many countries, which I don’t know where you are from, charcoal is also used for heating/cooking applications and may have it’s own market.
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No point in trying to teach a Know-it-All. Their only interest is in defending their ignorance.
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Hello Alice Yuan,
A bit difficult to understand your question / remarks…
If we talk about gasifiers, most often we have a clear understanding what we would like to use it for and what fuel we have at hand, quantity’s, availability, quality, price…
After that it have to be clear what the purpose of the gasifier / the whole process would be used for.
I live in a hot climate, so i can’t benefit of the wood to produce home heating/ warm water.
The whole list of processes involved and the individual needs/possibility’s will determine the most optimal choice of gasification process.
Cost - benefit or even better Benefit at what cost…
A gasifier is similar as using wood stove in daily life… it ain’t as simple as we would like it compared with nowadays ease of electric / gas piped in the house and have everything within the moment of pushing a button.
Using wood as fuel, for daily usage, comes with a lot of tasks… labor rich and time consuming…
It would be more comfortable if it was more clear about what company / person you are talking and clear about what its been talked about…
Buying raw fuel is one, processing fuel into gasifier grade fuel is next… having a gasifier that works flawless would be a dream…
Tell us about your fuel availability, then what would you like to do with the gasifier…
at the end, numbers… fuel cost / waste / labor / investment… and… how much time you wish to invest to benefit from gasification…
Rule of thumb: 1 kg of dry wood has an energy density of around 4.4 KwH
A good gasifier / generator set uses about 1.3 Kg to produce 1 KwH electric., waste heat about 75%.
Many numbers i could help you with, but then i would need more info to calculate with.
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Thanks for everyone’s replies!
Currently, the main raw material we are working with should be wood chips or bamboo chips of a similar size, and we hope to use a continuous system. The main goal at this stage is heating, and I don’t expect to progress to connecting it to a generator in the short term. It seems like he’s not really expecting that either and doesn’t want to add too many tasks. The biggest issue we are currently facing is the bridge structure. Solid flow is really a tough problem to solve, and it seems like it’s hard to avoid just with good design…
Since I don’t have much hands-on experience, it might be quicker to directly ask those with experience. If we have a fixed gasifier that processes 20 kilograms of wood chips (with a moisture content of about 15%) per hour, what would its production capacity be? And what would be the size of the furnace?
(By the way, I went to ask people from other related fields, and after talking to them, I’m now not sure if I have actually learned about gasification… Anyway, the current background is that I’m working with them on a project, and we’re applying for some government subsidies. There are already a few teams working on this gasification technology here, but the direction they’re taking is a bit off. Everyone is focused on exaggerating the data, which leads to some issues. For example, once I connect the generator, this bubble that everyone has blown up will burst, kind of like an economic bubble… Some projects even need additional electricity, a lot of it, but it’s not mentioned in the reports. I’m struggling to balance between exaggerating to get financial support and doing practical designs—this is really tough. Not sure if it’s because money is involved that things turn out this way, or if it’s just that all politics are shit. Sorry, I just wanted to vent a little 
.
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Hi Alice, can you tell what region/country you are talking from ?
Second, still confusing, heating ? What would you want to heat ? What is the importance of Charcoal in that case ?
It sound as a biomass boiler at this point…( if for heating purposes.)
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In Asia.
Charcoal is not that important. As far as I know, a properly functioning gasifier should not produce too much Charcoal. However, my business partner used it as a selling point to promote his products… something like that.
Our gasification feedstock is definitely biomass, not charcoal, due to cost reasons. Biomass is mostly free, and in some cases, people even pay to have it disposed of. With the progress of regulations, open burning has been banned, and the large amount of agricultural waste has become a problem.
The target for heating hasn’t been decided yet. The ideal process is to first build a system that can reliably provide heat, and then start reaching out to potential partners, such as farmers or woodchip companies. The woodchip companies are probably easier to understand—they have a lot of waste (which is obvious), and they need energy to dry wood. As for the farmers, many of them have materials that need to be processed, such as fruit tree branches. It then depends on the farmers’ side businesses (since most farmers have some sort of side business), like mushroom farming, where they would need energy for heating to carry out sterilization and other treatments.
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Hello Alice Yuan
Welcome to the DOW.
With your now defined questions and needs the information you seek is in the DOW Library.
Open up the top of page toolbar “Library” tool.
Then go to Essential Reading and open it up.
Scroll down and find and read the “World Bank (Technical paper) #296”
Although older now all of the essentials and maths remain the same.
Want more?
Read “FOA 72”.
Crashed down world wide oil prices mostly are what put a stop to these developments in the late 1990’s back then.
And you perceive correctly that initiatives to doing smaller scale local any bio-mass energy projects are politically fraught. Almost always internally set up to fail.
One of the current tripping holes will be having to account for ALL byproducts produced.
Then costs and costs added for different wastes stream processing and LAB results verifying.
Why the lights of DIY local energy are post-2000 being kept on only by those who do not ask for outside moneys. Do not ask for outside permissions and approvals.
Wood for heating. And wood for electrical power has taken off in the Ukraine war areas, small scale and local.
I would like to wish you luck; but that will not help you. Don’t break your heart rolling this stone up a never ending hill.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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Hi Alice, Asia seems to vague, as myself I am in Thailand, being involved in heat generation at larger scale and well aware of cost structure around here.
You talk about biomass to heat…
Input biomass to what kind of heat output ? Steam, Air, Hot oil ?
Using biomass to heat does not produces charcoal unless intended.
Depending the biomass used, you’ll end up with ashes, with, in case of not proper adjusted, some % of carbon particles.
Nowadays the use of biomass is seen as a bigger contributor to air pollution, PM 2.5 and Co2.
To give you some reference numbers:
Last year I managed 18,000,000 Kg of wood/biomass and 754,000 Liter of heavy oil into Heat energy.
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My gasifier is most similar to Ben Petersons . I can change the choke plate and nozzles or reduce number of nozzles running .
So for example if im running a small generatir i run 4 nozzles with 1 1/2 " choke .
A larger v8 engine i run 8 nozzles with 2 1/2" choke .
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Good to hear this CraigAM.
Also welcome to the DOW.
Please do set up a separate topic on your DIY woodgas system you have made up
Lot and lots of questions such as do you use raw bulk chunked-up wood fuel? Or a screened chipped wood fuel?
And a few picture please. You can be as discreet as you wish.
Ah . . . don’t answer the specifics here as it will distract from Ms Alice’s inquiries.
AliceY let’s start with the basics. Any form of conversion converting from a solid carbon or carbonatiuos base to vapor gaseous is gasification.
This can be years and years slow as in cool microbial rotting. The solid mass weight is still being mostly to vapors and gassed converted.
It can then go at the other extreme to huge external energy input rapid converted in a Plasma energy process.
The open air burning you referred to is a mid-way process using the fuel stock wastes as the it own energy input.
Closed container gasification is what allows controlling over this type mid-range system.
Whether that be an air tight capable wood stove or furnace. Or a multi-zone “gasifer” system.
Here is the reasons why the differences. To achieve different energy states in the end of process made gasses.
If the best solid fuels to energy conversion is sought; then as complete of combustion as possibly is made. Your end-process gases will be non-energy state carbon dioxide; water vapor; and others passed through from the atmospheric air “oxidizer” let in. Like nitrogen and trace argon.
All very dead, dead stable energy states gasses.
Now gasifing for engergized end results gasses . . . “fuel gasses” that is much different.
Here you are gasifer internally first converting the solid fuel to these stable state gasses. These kept as-made still HOT then passed on and they are molecularly ripped apart by the combination of their own heat energy excitation and the immense drawing force in the HOT, HOT wood charcoal C’s.
Those hungry, hungry enraged lonely only C’s Carbons ripping apart the stable bonds of the CO2 and H2O’s. Snapping together into only semi-stable CO (carbon monoxide) and some CH4 (wood methane). The single H’s left alone, coupling-up as H2, hydrogen. An also semi-stable fuel gas.
Just later add air oxygen; and a spark ionization source; and you will have combustion and a heat energy source. For direct contact heating. In an internal combustion engine making expansion force to conversion to rotary mechanical power.
So the easy to follow conclusions to these truths is if you want heat then any gasification elaboration is unnecessary. Controlled combustion will be needed. Control that; to be able to farm-out the carbon cores out of the raw wood inputs then you must accept only at best half the heat. Some fuel stocks you will give away up to 70% of the possible heat. The wood char carbons are the majority of the fuel energy potential.
Gasify for fuel gasses and using up as much as possible all of the internally freed-up make wood char will give the very best of % efficacy.
Member TONE here designs, and operates for this.
The more internal made char robbed out; the bigger, more expensive to build, and operate the system must be. Period.
You can steal a bit of the bees honey from their hive and they will work harder; breed out another generation of worker class, and live on. Not thrive but survive.
But human and bears are too often short sighted and greedy. Robbing the hive to its death. Impatiently killing the goose for its internal eggs, meat and feathers.
Beware Alice Yuan of the greedy in the alternative energy fields. Many just farming for grants moneys. And published fames.
Beware Alice Yuan of the brainiac ever hopeful pie-in-the-sky dreamer who believe thier genius and beliefs can beat the laws of thermal-dynamics.
Wood-for-power You can do many things as long as it is You, doing for yourself, and others immediate to you; whom you feel responsible.
Step out and intend to help others beyond: and you step on existing “Suppliers of Needs” rice baskets.
At best they will carrot-on-a-stick, make sure you are strung out, and along, until exhaustion, despondency and despair.
Or the worst can be made to occur. In many levels.
Steve Unruh
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Thank you, Steve, you make a lot of sense. I’ve basically given up on many far-fetched ideas and have lost a lot of interest in this project. These days, I’ve been focusing on studying the GEK gasifier and recommended it to my partner, and he seems quite satisfied… Anyway, as long as he’s happy, that’s fine.
Indeed, if the goal is simply heat, then the focus should be on controlling combustion. This brings me back to the original issue – gasification in my area has been somewhat mythologized as a completely pollution-free technology, superior to combustion, and easier to obtain grants and funding. Compared to combustion boilers, it’s clear that using the term gasification helps avoid many problems, such as emissions monitoring (since the regulations specifically target combustion, it’s a bit of a word game). Maybe I should shift my partner’s focus toward power generation? As far as I know, there isn’t yet a stable gasification power generation system in my region, most of the systems seem to be more about show or charcoal production (I still believe gasifiers shouldn’t primarily focus on charcoal production – that should be the job of a carbonization furnace) and raising funds. But clearly, if I push forward with this plan, I probably won’t get the funding support, as there aren’t many people who genuinely want to do the right thing. Most are more focused on making money without exhausting themselves too much…
Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the responses!
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Hello Yuan, welcome, you wrote well above. If you have a lot of patience and perseverance, you will soon be operating an efficient wood gasifier. The basic instructions are:
- excess water must be removed from the process … condensation zone
- the wood storage tank should be heated from the outside with waste heat, so the fuel does not stick and slides down nicely, while pyrolysis takes place high above the hot zone
- the most important part is the hot zone with glowing charcoal, which adapts to the load, here the waste gas temperature is returned in the form of preheating fresh air, which is very important
- the internal diameters in the gasifier should be the same from top to bottom, the narrowing is only represented by the hot zone, but here the wood has already been converted into pure charcoal, which does not stick as much as wood.
Tone
Slovenia
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Dave of Dave & Brian @d100f has one of three slightly used GEK’s 10Kw’s he has acquired and has been try to sell one now.
Ask him in a DOW PM.
Steve Unruh
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Hello Alice , as Steve has mentioned i do indeed still have 1 complete 32KW Power Pallet that has not yet been worked on ,but if its like the other 2 Gasifiers i bought then it will take next to nothing to get it cleaned up and serviced and working The machine has just been parked into storage while we have been busy , so hoping soon someone will make an offer soon and take this baby away
I also have a Gek gasifier that’s available for anyone wanting to get into wood gasification with little work to get that making gas .
Dave
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