Tone, how about filling ratio pulling on a gasifier?
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How do you mean that? Those numbers are the best you can get for turning heat into mechanical power. And if you think how, with the pistons moving up and down, the numbers are really impressive. No turbine or whatever can reach those numbers. IC is the best you can get, still, after 100 years. And then your experiments with the diesel is impressive too, almost no powerloss, no char left, burn it all?
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Maybe you would need an engine development lab?
I used to work that way at Honeywell. I helped to develop an air bearing turbocharger. We measured pressure, temperature, speed, flow ratesā¦ Many little wires and computers measuring everything. Also expensive.
Rindert
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JO, the gasifier and the filter really cause damping and reduce the filling of the engine, but according to vacuum measurements, this is possible at max 0.05-0.1 bar, which would mean 5-10% less combustible mixture and if we also take into account the opening and closing angle of the intake valve, which would additionally reduced the charging efficiency by 10%, i.e. by 20% in total, which means that the power drops from 30 to 24 kW, which is still a great number. However, the biggest question is, if we consider that a gasoline or propane engine captures almost half as much oxygen for combustion and from this point of view should have twice as much power (when running on propane we also have to take into account some loss due to damping on the intake manifold and filter and valve opening angle and greater heat loss due to hotter combustion), but there is a lack of data for an exact calculation, so I can only estimate that the same gasoline engine develops 30-40% more power than wood gas, is that true?
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Sounds about right to me - POWER wise.
Iām not not sure about the reason for this discussion - but since weāre playing with numbers- this is the way I like to look at WG power.
If we assume the amount of oxygen dictates the power outcome and that we can only fill the cylinders with half the amount of air compared to running gasoline - you claimed another 20% off for vacuum losses - then weāre down to 40% power. Wayneās truck proved woodgas 37% more efficient turning energy into shaft power vs gasoline. Then we end up at 55% max power vs running gasoline.
Most of our gasifiers arenāt built to handle max power. Also, most engineās rated max power are at rpms not relevant to woodgas - your tractor being an exception. Personally Iām happy as long as my vehicles takes me where Iām going, in an acceptable speed and cheap 
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And your statement sums up the practicality of using woodgas today.
Your ācheapā, āmy vehiclesā, āacceptable speedā explains it all J.O.
Cheap meaning already available in-mass-production and used IC engine power converters. Not woo-woo some-day soon engine converters. Green-Steam and other $'s trolling proposals. Or old 100 years past now far surpassed engine converters. As evolved at best maximized out 16% efficient three stage piston steam engines. And Iāll say 650 to 950 pounds of iron and steel early 20th Century IC piston engines for only 6 to 18 horsepower. 20% efficient they were better than steam. But for 40+ years 30+% is the accepted normal now.
Stationary for electric power made from wood āacceptable speedā would mean 400 watts an hour to able to surge to 4500 watts an hour on the power producer.
And there I compare it to my actual 250 days of needing home space heating/dehumidifying/ventilation at a real average of 50 pounds of fuel wood needed a day. And in a modern wood stove at minimum of 75% conversion efficiency I can wood harvest-prepping do this in ~60 hours wood-sweating annually.
Now can I make my wood derived 18 hours a day of 400 electrical watts with peaking capability of 4500 electrical watts on 50 pounds of fuel wood a day?
Yes.
But only if I use the 72% efficiency woodgasifier systems fueling the actual true minimum 30-35% modern IC engine generator systems.
And sorry guys . . . IC engines with side-valves/flat-heads spinning constantly 3600 RPM synchronous generator heads are not 30% fuel converting systems. 20-25 % systems. Fine, fine, back when petroleum was cheap, cheap and readily available.
Tone, the reasons most of us do not like to play the chase the numbers games is that approach deceives. That approach fails to give practice, useable results. One single factor un-accounted for, minimized, exaggerated leads to false hopes. Or leads to not-trying at all for wood based DIY powers.
Efficnecy-Maniacāing results in marvelous very limited purpose systems.
Such as these super gasoline fuel efficiency 1600-1800 watt suitcase IC engine electrical generators. You must be diligent double fine screening your gasoline in for the fine orifices fuel passageways when these are set up to mix at a 1/10 a gallon per hour rate.
Our now consider older 2007 Hyundi Tucson is so precisely dedicated to modern E-10 87 octane gasoline that times Iāve put in non-ethanol gasoline or even 89-92 octane gasoline it will misfire enough to set codes. Ran long enough go into forced power cut back.
Our earlier modern 90ās EFI systems did not care from non-ethanol 87, thru 92 octane E15.
My wife from us nightly reading to the foster girls (and watching too much Public Radio driving is using a lot of āGoldilocksā evaluations into our conversations.
You know. Too Hot/Big/Hard versus too Cold/Small/Soft with in-between these extremes of Just-Right.
Ha! Ha! And I throw back to her our evolved here in the U.S. in the late 1960ās to mid 1970ās suppliers who always offering up a Good, versus Better, versus The Best in their offerings. (Just as long as you were buying from them!).
Observant, wise folks learned to always get the Better.
Better than the good-enough to get you dependent using; then break-wear requiring you to replace, to re-buy.
Better than TheBest so features laden and over-built expensive you could not afford to acquire and accommodate for other of Lifeās real needs.
Woodgas . . . Better than any other DIY power alternative. Because you can home-grow-it.
Use it to fuel effectively, usably, current power converter engines.
Steve Unruh
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Hereās one thatās eluded me for a few years, itās one I saw when it just came out. The algorithm finally showed it to me again.
This guyās got a few other woodgas videos but I think he eventually gave up, not sure.
Hereās an interesting analysis he found.
He had made a FEMA at first, and recycled the plumbing for his other build including his flaring blower.
When he started to get clean but moist gas from his other gasifier it was loosening the tar in the piping and blower, leading to the tar getting to his engine.
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He has a sort of Imbert-ish gasifier.
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I gotta tip my hat to NHHobbyLogger. Heās been at it for years, and loves to document his stuff.
Steve if you donāt already know about him, he even has an exhaust basket fuel wood dryer!
Hereās a hard test heās running for his generator.
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He just bought a DFX-S4 RTR
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Very cool, I know he keeps a few gasifiers around. He got that crazy big gasifier that was at a local university and made a video about that.
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Yeah Im sure he will do video on the DFX. We could use the pr; too many just get these things and stuff em in the shed. They dont even un pack them. Im gettting calls now from clients from years ago now that are just now getting their machines running for the first time.
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Hi Guys,
Serg Legunov has a new explaination video out:
He give comparison to some of his last pipe-in-pipe works.
And @Tone even a reference to your lower system air introduction ideas.
Interesting to me his evaluation of this tobacco wastes fueled system as the very high ash content limiting the output capability as compared if had used a lower ash/higher carbon wood fuel.
Matched my experiences. Input fuel types matters a lot. As much as system design principals. Develop around what wood you will have and use.
The eats-all, Omni-fueler is an always just out of reach āIdealisticā approach to ever getting real things done, useable.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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The paper I think he was referring to is.
(i havenāt found a copy of it yet. It is too new.)
more interesting is the gasifier design itself has been used in indonesia for a long time. This is one of the earliest I found with a very similar if not the same designā¦ And both 2-stage and 3-stage gasifiers use it as a reference paper. āexperimental investigation on multi-stage downdraft gasification: Influence of air ratio
and equivalent ratio to the gasifier performanceā
tarstudy.pdf (667.5 KB)
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Not too sure this is what you mean as a small system Steve but i have not come across this one before ,unless i was asleep when it was talked about before .
Dave
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Hey Dave good find.
Iāve never seen this mans two videos.
Certainly fits Small system builds as made for 22-27 horsepower engines.
Just what air-cooled V-Twins are in medium electrical generators.
Video #1 he give full system installed overview with LOTS of learned operating guidelines.
Video #2 at 10:40 he shows then the internals details. Only 159 views; that one needs more exposure.
Ha! He designed and tuned for Sierra Nevada Ponderosa Pine wood as the fuel.
So there! you conifer reluctants.
As he says overall a unique design but incorporating some features from many others. ( some purists will howl)
A Gitter Done kind guy for sure. Using lots of obtainuim parts and pieces creativly. He loves rod linkages.
Regards
Steve Unruh
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Itās a fact that there is nothing new under the sun. Before youtube I and many others believed that they were some kind of innovators. The folly of youth. Now, whatever Ideas I come up with I can find fifty other examples on the web.
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With all due respect (Mr.) Tom, I can say that whoever tries to make a useful gasifier is worthy of praise, well, as far as ānoveltyā is concerned, you can witness many innovative constructions on this forum (Wayne, JO, Goran, Kristjan, Giorgio, Matt,ā¦sorry everyone, I didnāt mention you) that contain some new good features of the gasifier. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here, just take the ones that suit you. Tom, your contributions are also valuable and thought-provoking.
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Well a couple of things he did caught my eye.
He cut off the propane tank top straight. Did NOT make a difficult to keep flat welded on flange onto it. Then made a thick top assembly/cover plate. And that was then five points adjustable pressure, threaded bolts pulled down just tight enough. Allows for movements. Using just a simple NOMEX fabric ring made up for sealing.
All assembled guts onto that thick cover plate and then dropped down into, at at outer jacket is pure old Imbert assembly type. W.K.ish too. This allows the temperature expansions and contractions to take place without solid rigid welding cracking and buckling.
Smart to see the why of the past. And then make it even simpler. W.K. did this too.
He did a chains hanging grate. But used LONG chains. Iāve recommended this to a few in the past. One guy actually did it. A Canadian welder shop fellow. Short chain hangers barely move at all. And forced to swing, will give an upward movement. Maybe O.K. with harder, hardwood charcoal. But on conifer woods soft charcoals, the upwards crushing grate movements will turn your system into a sootsmaking (actually char dust) Monster. And that overloads the down stream separation. Wasted valuable carbon fuel. Fellows will then blame the wood. Nope. Was-You-Dude! Not designing for the woods characteristics.
Rewatch, and he specifically designed to operate on his regional Ponderosa Pine conifer wood.
āWoods are diffnert?ā Yes child,. They are very differrnt. Not all pizzaās are the same now, are they? You like cheese pizzaās. I like meats and vegetables pizzaās
It is Universalty. Will eat all ābiomassā that is the over-sold fantasy. Pure Back-To-The-Future, Hollywood writers bunk; believed.
And that western Canadian fellow mostly only had Firs and Spruces to use.
S.U.
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I remember seeing this years ago but couldnāt ever find it again. I have a hard time seeing how exactly it functions but he obviously does use it on that old car, so bully for him.
I want to say he sold DVDs or Plans on his website but itās been a while.
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