Thanks for all the replys about the nickel iron edison batterys, being all the shipping charges added too the price, and the new style type zero maintainace, think i might have too settle for just heavy duty deep cycle lead asid batterys, when ,or if i build at leiste a 2000$ range battery bank, just if i move on land off grid. looking at land posibilitys.Those ev batterys seem like they might last fairly well too, depending on how they were coulpled in banks. Seems the older edison battery are not too efficient on storage per size and price.
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Just about drove myself crazy trying to wrap me head around all the battery information here and in the web. I had a job supervising paint system installations in auto plants at one time. The company had golf carts to get around the plant with. These were things that the golf courses decided were too old to be reliable. I had one cart for over a year. Pulled a material laden cart and hauled passengers. Ran it til it was out of juice every day. Plugged it in over night. It lasted longer than I did with that company. Thatâs my total experience with battery power. Could not have abused that cart more. So lacking experience I think itâs like learning to build gasifiers. Start out simple with things you can understand and not have much invested and then as you get more proficient and are pretty sure you arenât going to mess up something build better gasifiers or upgrade your battery bank.
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I have lead acid batteries . It is grid tied . It was inspected by utility . I do not think I would have gotten approval without them .
I did want to mention other options
Deploying OutBack Equipment
with Lithium-ion Batteries
With the growing availability and decreasing cost of lithium-ion batteries, they are more
frequently used in solar + storage systems where daily cycling is part of the duty cycle. While
OutBack Powerâs Radian and FXR inverters, as well as the FLEXMax charge controllers, were
designed for lead-acid batteries, they can also be paired with many of the 48 VDC lithium-ion
batteries currently available. OutBack Power continues to test the most popular batteries and
publish specific application notes with recommended settings based on those tests. This
application note is intended to provide general guidelines for batteries that have not been tested
by OutBack. As such, please note that the company cannot claim responsibility for any damage
done by or to batteries that are deployed using the information found here.
Battery Management Systems
Lithium-ion battery systems all require some form of battery management system (BMS) to
maintain appropriate current and voltage to each of the cells. The BMS may or may not require
active communication with the inverter and/or charge controllers. When required, the path of
communication is typically via a standard protocol such as CANBUS or MODBUS, although the
commands and information exchanged are often specific to the BMS or battery brand.
BMS types that require active communication with the power electronics, such as the LG RESU
line, can be used with OutBackâs SkyBox True Hybrid Energy System â but only after specific
programming and testing has been completed. These batteries should not be deployed outside
of specifically recommended pairings, as the battery will likely not function without the right
signal from the inverter.
Fortunately, many of the nominal 48 VDC lithium-ion batteries available today are designed as
âdrop-in lead-acid replacementâ units with a fully self-contained BMS that requires no external
communications. SimpliPhi and Blue Ion are good examples of the type of lithium-ion battery
system that can be deployed successfully with OutBackâs Radian and FXR systems. For these
and similar batteries, the typical charge and discharge parameters used for lead-acid batteries
can be adjusted using the MATE3s to optimize performance. OutBack Power expanded the
range of programmable battery settings several years ago in our most popular products. See
the end of this application note for a list of equipment that can be used with this type of BMS.
Iron edison sells a package with outback inverter . I noticed a setting for nickle iron battery
https://ironedison.com/outback-radian-9kw-iron-edison-package
Still liking these Remys. Most are heading for banks, but two have migrated to the excavator.
One is in a bank with other batts and thatâs a no no, but still it looks good. Itâs not trying to gas.
I am ordering more.
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The Edison battery was all steel with nickle plated plates . It was cheap Edison got a very good return on investment selling this battery . You would refresh the battery by adding water or electrolyte or by changing electrolyte . Charts and schedules for this . Edison sold electrolyte and battery oil to slow loss of water in battery . Bottles of battery oil are collectors item .
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The nickel metal oxide that is used was expensive and still is expensive to manufacture. However, what I never figured out was whether you could just use nickel, then the sodium hydroxide/charge cycle would create a new layer of the nickel oxide.
To be completely honest the LiFe batteries are far superior. They have 5-10k cycle life, no damage done if drained to zero. They have good round trip efficiency. They donât offgas hydrogen like NiFe or lead acid does. They do have issues in cold temperatures, but they are a lot safer to store inside, then most other battery chemistries. I think there is still room for the price to move down on the packs they sell but I wouldnât feel like I got ripped off either. They will most likely last the rest of my lifetime if I used them in my house.
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The nickle plated plates had pockets containing sintered nickle and another material I can not describe . The electrolyte was lye . The batteries were for railroad signals and received regular charging and servicing .
I have 6 thousand dollars of lead batteries at 54.5 volts .
I am looking forward to flow battery for massive power storage . Some one should make a flow battery without pumps that you charge discharge by slowly tilting it one way during day and the other during night .
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I am a big believer in thermal storage in water. Cheap and with radiant floor heating you donât need the higher temperature of baseboard heating. That is my long term goal solar PV with excess power put into heating a thermal mass as an opportunity load.
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It should have been nickel(III) oxide-hydroxide,iron, and potassium hydroxide. The nickel III is what is expensive to manufacture. You basically canât kill them. I actually really like them, but they have a roundtrip efficiency of like 55%, offgas hydrogen, and only hold a charge for like 30 days and freeze. They are still still after full depth of discharge though. They are also not maintenance free.
lead acid doesnât have the charge cycles and depth of discharge without incurring damage to the batteries. The batteries deteriorate with every charge cycle, and most people try to limit that to around 50% DoD.
The LiFe batteries allow for 100% discharge with no harm and last 5k+ charge cycles. The can discharge without a significant voltage drop to around 80% so you are only looking at needing about half as many batteries. They do have issues in cold weather. But as far as cost effectiveness over their lifetime, they are a no-brainer. The upfront costs are higher though. I understand not wanting to jump into them.
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Be careful what you buy. I just installed a stack of made in India new NiCd batteries that were junk. The manufacturer gave use some very weird charging details and they failed to pass the commissioning test, heck the old ones were betterâŚ
NiFe off gas just like any other wet cell when over charged, the advantage they have is they are no as likely to be damaged. There is even some research in to the idea that NiFe could be used both as a battery and electroliosys unit to make H2 from water
Wasnât the main drawback of NiCd batteries is they had a memory and very specific charging requirements?
It is hydrogen gas, so you donât want them in a confined area that might spark, plus you have to keep adding water to them. The only ones I have seen that were dead, are frozen ones that shattered the case.
I kind of look at LiFe as the updated version of the NiFe batteries because of the longer life without some of the drawbacks like offgassing, a higher efficiency.
I thought about capturing the hydrogen when I was like 8 and first heard about them. The conversion went kind of like this:
âyeah dad these would be really cool to have, they last forever!â
âWe live in michigan. They will freeze. Where are you going to store them?â
âInside!â
âYour mom wouldnât allow that in the house. She is deathly afraid of anything electric, and I am not sure that is a good idea eitherâ
âTrue⌠How about an Underground in a bunker! it doesnât freeze below ground!â
âthey offgas hydrogen.â
âwhy does that matter? the air is full of hydrogen!â
âit is like a bombâ
âoh. well letâs capture it! then we can use it for something else!â
eyerolls âHow? and where are you going to store it? Isnât that the same problem?â
'errr hrrm let me think about it⌠â
lmao
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I saw this video showing testing if the different types of lithium batteries and figured people here might like to see that there are a couple of different types that actually are not much of a fire hazard even when over charged or damaged.
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We had kind if the same situation, but a little uncontrolled. Since then Lion is out.
My sun converted his mountainbike ( we dont have any mountains, so) into electric. 1500W with a self build battery. He got one cell down, changed that one for a new one. Did this in his bedroom on his desk. While he was watching tv that cell exploded. Chair black, desk burned, monitor keyboard got some. Black wall, ceiling and the other wall where it came down. I was sleeping, awoke and angry that someone was smashing a door at night. Then youngest I hear in panic. All the smoke alarms went off from top to down. Full of smoke. The middle one was watching tv downstairs and saw the explosion. Trhew the batt pack out the window while burning. Well, everyone stayed unharmed. Lion is no toy. We knew, now we saw that.
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Now LiFePo4 from Batt hookup. Riding faster and further. But the batt pack is closer to his jewels⌠Any recomandations?
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My recommendation is get a good battery management system for it that will cut out before the batteries are over charged or drawn down too low.
I am glad no one was hurt with the battery fire. I did something similar I should have known better. I replaced the battery in a solar lantern with laptop salvaged batteries and didnât think anything of it because the solar panel couldnât over charge the battery anyway. All was good until I stupidly plugged it into a wall outlet and over charged it. The lantern burst into flames in the middle of the night but I was able to toss it in the wood stove before it did any damage.
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They make a charge/discharge controller for LiFe batteries. I think they typically use pulsed dc for charging.
At minimum make sure it is in a case. if something bad does happen, then it is contained. It can be a cooler looking retro case, hammered out of sheet metal, to look like the old school gas tanks. 
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Chevron-Texaco had purchased NiMH battery patents from GM and closed down production of the cells used to make the first gen electric truck through legal action . And they still do .
I like the NiMH batteries that I salvaged from my sonâs junked Prius. I charge in two stages with a simple voltage cut-out circuit. They are giving me many happy miles powering a trolling motor on my canoe.
I know the latest lithium cells are the best. I donât know why I resent using sophisticated charging circuitry â Iâm willing to use this computer ?!
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As I understand it, and with a few years of messing with Lithium-X battery systems, I will offer my experience in a paragraph or two. Every proper and safe Lithium battery system has at least one microcomputer control in it. You may not see it, and it may only have a few pins, but it is there. It may be in the battery pack itself, I canât think of a lithium rated charger that doesnât have some kind of programmed controller. You have to maintain each cellâs voltage in an optimum range, say 3 to 4 volts as an example. Of course, you can run it down more, or charge it higher, and you can expect more trouble or shorter life. We have some camera batteries (High $ Anton Bauer systems) that are years old and still work great. Those batteries will actually shut themselves down at a certain discharge point. The batteries communicate with the charger when connected. Even the old Ni-Cads will explode and burn if overcharged enough, they usually wonât flame up, though. If you use Lithium-Polymer batteries, expect to replace them often, they age out quickly. If they are discharged under 2 volts and / or swelled up, just save yourself trouble and discard them. Charging those is where the flame/smoke videos come from.
If you are using reclaimed Lithium cells, you must monitor the voltage and donât forget about them. Model aircraft suppliers have developed all kinds of âbalancingâ chargers that monitor each cell. Sorry if you are all bored now⌠
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Is anyone using a âdrop inâ 48v lithium battery pack?
I have to order batteries for the carts. We have two curtis 48v motor controllers for the carts. One is a EZ-Go, the other is a '62 Melex. We ran both motors on 50vdc, and they did fine. We are currently using the Remys from further up the thread. We are using two strings of four in series. Its $2000 for batteries for each cart. So if Lithium is less expensive I would like to hear about it.
We have the Outback 80 amp charge controller.
We have six 100 watt panels for each cart. I wanted three 370 watt panels but the shipping brings the cost up over $1 watt. The 100 watters were $69 w/shipping.
I havenât pinned down an inverter for each cart yet. For now with the Remys we can rearrange their configuration for use with a 12v inverter.
We will eventually need a 48v inverter.