This is a fun thread to read! I’ve scrolled through nearly the entire thing.
When I first became really interested in gasification just a few months ago, my initial thought was to use pellet’s because of the predictable factor, everything from design to fuel sourcing and consistent performance. It is good to see the Idea being realized and feels good to have it revitalized in myself. I am going to focus on building what is most commonly used here for now but after that pellets may be the future, either that or coal…
I have some knowledge of automation from the 3 years I spent in school, I did decorative concrete for several years too, what I’ve learned is that the lack of predictability and consistency is the Achilles’ heel for quality. Fantastic things can be built but often they aren’t even attempted because success is only something that might happen if we work really hard and think on our feet all the way through. The project is then canned entirely for something that is familiar, could be very successful and will at the least not be a complete failure.
The most mind numbing redundant job I’ve had is something I picked up while in school, I was working with 3D printers for a major and successful corporation. Their methods of running things seamed very inefficient to me, when I thought about their goals though and their weakest points to accomplish those goals it made more sense. Redundant machines and humans that can use the machines is what will be profitable for a company in the end. The predictability factor is very important for some, for others who think on their feet and wish for a simple life it takes quite a bit to become a big deal. So it really just depends on who is involved when deciding how to make something or what method is best.
For now, I am just fine making a wood-chunk gasifier but hope the pellet idea takes off so more poeple will start using these.
Levi,
Well thought out post. Pellets are great, i think. Those folks who really want to be independent of any middlemen supply chain will want to make their own, which is an art of its own. Wood chunks are kind of like making pellets, just less uniform!
Levi, I have used pellets and they are very nice to work with in a gasifier. I have found hardwood wood chips classified between maximum and minimum screens to be consistent enough for my purposes. Chips are delivered to my house for free by tree trimming companies.
What Ive found its not worth my time to make fuel. Even at 5 bucks a bag of pellets, my labor is worth more that what I can get producing my own fuel. If I can make a machine that will produce pellets from raw materials in with no user input other than loading the feed stock in a one time bulk fashion than that beats manual labor time inputs into making fuel regardless of how efficient the process is. Most who come to me dont realize what you actually need for a wood chipper to run a chip fuel machine. You need a commercial chipper. They are gas hogs, they are large, they eat large trees, and they are expensive. Much more than a pellet mill with combined smaller chipper and hammer mill. A Harbor Freight chipper will not cut it and you would be lucky to produce 80 lbs of usable chips in an hours time. 80 lbs of pellets is only $10 bucks if that and that fuel is ready to run, your 80 lbs of chips will still need to be dried down.
Another reason Ive gone to pellets is I sell and ship world wide. For a manufacturer offering a system in a global market fuel must be standardized. Chip fuels are impossible to standardize, wood species vary in density, chippers vary in size, humidity varies by locations, all sorts of variables i can not control. Chunk can not be bulk fed so it dont work as most customers want it run for long intervals with out any intervention. My competitors will follow suit if they are smart or their will continue to be failures in this space.
I will no longer be putting any new effort into development of the current technology. I will be moving on to advanced charcoal gasification with automated CHP fuel production systems. I was blinded from the start, but I now see it. Charcoal is more efficient and easier. The energy to produced the charcoal is fuel to manufacture, its easy to get. Its no different than the fuel you feed your machines to produce bulk chunks, chips or pellets.
Agreed. My 5HP lawn and garden chipper does not make the quality or quantity of chips to be worthwhile. Pellets are the way to go if selling machines far and wide.
Matt, I couldn’t help smiling when I read that. You and I we’re looking at the opposite side of the same coin.
The way I look at it is most people pay to have fun and I get paid. To me the fuel production is the most fun part of the gasification business.
Jo, now I have to react some. Matt didnot make any pellets yet, so he thinks this way. But in the export machinery and pellets he is almost right. There are pellets and there are pellets.
The way you make your fuel is really relaxing indeed. That is the path I am going to follow or the charcoal way.
You have not ran a gasifier or made fuel for it correct? I have a vendor that makes pellet machines plus distributors that make their own fuel. Im basing on what they tell me plus I have seen the vendor machine in operation. That machine is hands down easier and more efficient. Its not as simple as just chipping up fuel there is more to it and lot of waste is produced. That waste is energy wasted both fuel for process and waste itself plus your time input. That wasted energy can put into the pelleting process it evens out. No matter how your process your fuel, you are going to put efforts into it and you will find out I am right and I promise you will go back to pelleting as it is more efficient and easier.
Unless you chunk your fuel, but then you need to build a chunker and your run times will be limited. This will be the case for chip fuels as well unless you build a bulk feeder. That bulk feeder will for sure put your energy inputs over budget and well beyond the pelleting production.
When you produce fuel you do not make it as you need it. You produce in bulk,
This is our guy in Mexico, looks straight forward to me and they do this daily. Does this look like a lot fo work? Its no more work than chipping fuels. This is the waste you are going through away when you chip. The work you put is the same as chipping. Instead sorting, throwing away half your yield and then drying. This energy and time input is put into the pelleting process. You end up with a better performing fuel with higher energy density, cleaner gas and longer run times and the machine will run with much less intervention.
This here my friend is work and lot of work, only 25% of what he has chipped here is probably usable. The rest is waste plus the fuel he used to chip that waste. I have this exact chipper. I plan to modify it to feed back the chips into the mulches side and that will be modified for the hammer mill operation.
The goal will be to chip to hammer mill in one process using the same energy input. This also opens up your fuel sources as you will not be limited to taking down full trees to run in a commercial chipper to run a wood chip gasifier.
You are right, still reading and can’t make up my mind. Simple fire is very easy to build and operate. Charcoal is a bit more complicated. JO’s rebak chunker is quit nice and suits my wood. Gasifier is more complex but do-able. The sawdustgasifier is still my first choice but I have to design it myself. And there is no knowledge and time for that. Long story short, no experience yet. So no comment from my side. And first finish the heating system for the house. It is almost there, functional but the electronics is the last step. Lister on veggie oil is the next step, then a gasifier. That gives time for thinking and I don’t have to decide yet.
Pelletmaking is a different story. I have seen youtube. Do you believe everything that is posted there? I have experience and my conclusion is, it is a dead end. But maybe not for you. You have the right on your own experience or just sell the pellet gasifiers. No doubt it is a beautiful fuel. But if you want to make it yourself, the EROI is going to kill it.
There is a market for cnc plasma/routers, but I think the people that are looking for a gasifier are a different kind.
No criticism here , just another point of view. I like the things you make.
This not coming from youtube this is coming from my distributors that have pellet machines and know how to run them. The mexico machine is not on yourube nor is the Norway machine.
Also what you have explained simply further justifies. If you think its hard work to run that mill and not worth your efforts wait till you chip fuel with a small chipper.
If you chunk fuel that will be the way for you. But then you will be limited to short run times. 2 hours is a short run time. I doubt you will get more than hours run time. It will be more of a challenge to keep that running verses a pellet machine. Those that were at Argos in 2018 saw the pellet machine I had there it ran all day long, never stalled or was shut down and it ran for over 8 hours. That will be a challenge with a chunk fuel machine and even more so running chip fuels.
This is the key, try it yourself and you know. Some alibaba picture doesnot change what I experienced, nor the Mexican guy. My system was automated quit a lot and then I found out I was just smashing time and money. JO triggered me, it is relaxing that way to keep your house warm and powered (that is MY goal).
I know these poeple on a personal and business level. The Alibaba picture is just the model he has and for reference. Look I get it pellets have challenges, what you dont get is others fuels have more challenges. The Key is build a gasifier produce the fuel and try to run it with out destroying your engine. Youtube of one time builds and a 2 minute run at the end proves nothing. This is not as easy as it may seem and once you fully factor all energies and time pellets will come out ahead of chip fuel processing. Ive done this and lived this for 8 years I know what I am talking about…
I get that. It is just no fun and very noisy to make pellets. I would rather take some willows from my land and run it through JO’s chunker. With a car like Koen with pv, batt and small charcoal gasifier, it can be done on the spot. Very quit and in the wood. All about design choices…
I agree with you there, chipping is not quiet and is also very loud. Chunking is ok, but for me I want longer run times, once have a machine that you can forget about as it is running you dont ever want to go back to constantly listening to your machine run.
My next steps will be in charcoal advancement I do believe my efforts will be better spent here taking this to the level of automation my current machines are at. I will start with processing before I even start the charcoal gasifier unit.
[quote=“Matt, post:1087, topic:2765”]
I agree with you there, chipping is not quiet and is also very loud.
You can say that a couple more times. Lol.
I love the discussion guys.
No doubt, people tend to under estimate the cost and effort of fuel production. We run wood, we run charcoal. I would pretty much prefer charcoal if we still had to chunk wood. Now that all we have to do is haul it 10 miles and sort into containers, I like the wood. Drying anything is a huge pain in the rear.
