Toyota: 22r carb, or 22re go?

So before I jump into the gassifier build, I have decided the toyota will be up first before the generator or the v-10 projects. Current specimen is my 87 toyota standard cab short box 22r 4 speed. So as I’m new to this I’d like a general opinion on what would be easier to woodgas; the current 22r carbureted or a fuel injected 22re? Iv had many of both (toyota addiction is real in my part of the sticks) I have motor swapped and rebuilt many of these over the years of wheeling in the mountains built several trucks 2wd and 4wd about every drivetrain made between 79-96 I have played with. It’s no big thing at all to fuel injection swap this truck in a weekend for me if that would be the better option. I’ll be pulling the motor soon to go through and freshen it up with rods mains pistons and rings and regasket in prep for wood gas. I’ll start with a fully fresh motor to keep track of build ups over time in hopes to closely monitor gas quality. Also contemplating a five speed swap Which is another cake walk swap for me if that would benefit me. This truck will be run as a commuter for 80 miles round trip daily to work and back. With the current 4 speed she tops out at about 70mph floating the tired old valves and billowing smoke from the worn out rings, hence the freshening up time. So once she is back to the factory rated 96 ponies, will it be beneficial to swap to efi for wood gas? Iv also planned to upgrade to an rv cam like I do with every toyota motor I have ever rebuilt ( build better low end trq out to about 5500 rip 'ems) when paired with a properly jetted webber carb which I have on hand as well. I have no problem running hybrid for a little more power if that would be a issue with the carb version since I have read it is common for a carb to “bleed” dino into the system when drawing on the gassifier. I had planned to eliminated the on the head fuel pump and swap to inline electric pump so I can control fueling more critically. My thinking on that being the factory diaphragm pump run full time off the eccentric on the camshaft would never stop pumping fuel (the weber carb does not have a fuel return system) and may not take well to in the longevity department to stopping fuel flow for woodgas 100% cruising on the road. Most of my driving is on roads with a speed limit of 40mph, occasionally 55. Well there is my current thinking, am I on the right track? Any input is greatly appreciated!

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Hi MarcusN.
David Siedschlag is the member here who DID woodgas his Toyota pickup 22re.
Read here:

This was in 2013.
He later offered it up for-sale here in 2018:

And in between he did make comments about his systems performance on others topics threads.

You goals sounds realistic.
On your engine re-fresh see what you can do to bump up the compression. Even if you’d later have to go with premium unleaded gasoline.
Sound like your are using at 4000-5000 feet? Power deration just for that.
I do not know about the camshaft.
5-speed with it’s overdrive, YES.

USE PROOF is what matters the most. Do not get trapped into “hydrogen-fast”, “CO fuel gas-slow” talking/over-thinking traps. Use it to find out. Different engines in different applications giving different results.
Regards
Steve unruh

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As I read Marcus’ post he is asking for help setting a basic direction for his project; whether to use a carburetor or electronic fuel injection. Well, from everything I’ve read on this forum EFI is the better way to go.
Wayne has talked about having two separate gas pedals, one for woodgas, one for gasoline. And KristijanL actually made a progressive linkage for his MBZ e230 jetronic system that allowed him to add a little gasoline as needed for extra power. These things can be done. But from everything I’ve read here EFI is the better way to go.
Rindert

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Here is a video I took at Argos in 2013 showing Davids’ truck being fired up for the very first time.

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My house is at 300 feet above sea level and I’m regularly in the mountains up to 3000 feet sometimes higher, but for the commuter build here with the toyota it will probably never go above 2000 feet so that would be my working range. I have a spare five speed laying around that can get dropped in no problem, and if efi will be easier to work with I’ll need to plan out more how I can regulate the fuel system. Never had to modify toyota efi before since it works flawlessly on pump gas, but high compression piston can easily be done during the rebuild for cheap. Through my past experience with “hotrodding” these little pickups, a old trick is to run a early 79-82 year 20r head on the latter 22r block to bump up compression and horsepower (around 120hp with a mild port and polish job and good cam) but I have not swapped efi onto these earlier heads as the intake bolt pattern and layout is completely different from the stock 22r/re heads. Not opposed to making a one off custom intake as I have done before when running duel side draft mikuni carbs, but would be a bit more of a challenge to incorporate the efi onto the older head. Or just go with high compression pistons in the 22r motor. Is there a preferred compression ratio for woodgas? 9.5/10 to one?

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That video DonM put up should really help you. Thanks Don.

DavidS’s later posts indicate he did modify his system in the later years.
Click open his Picture avatar icon to open a basic info window. On that window click again on his icon-picture to open up a his full info page. On that page click open his “Activities”. Select and read. Use the upper page tab Back-arrow <-- as the short cut to pull up and read a different post of his.

The woodgas use magic seems to peak at 11.5/1 up to 13/1 c.r.
But if the 20r head has smaller valves and intake ports: no-no for woodgas. You want as much flow volume as possible.
Ha! Ha! And now with your own “make-your-own-intake” others will not think I’m full of it having done this myself too!
S.U.

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The 20r head bumps compression to 10-1, with bigger valves and more flow, but head work to create the same characteristics on a 22r head isn’t hard to achieve. Cometic thin head gasket and shaved head and boom high compression. Also creates a interference engine (valve can meet piston in worst case scenario) but with the time proven double roller timing chain swap that is easily avoided. Making an intake is no big thing really, there is no vehicle I own that isn’t modified in some way shape or form the factory can never get things right in my eyes. With 16 years of automotive, diesel, heavy diesel and heavy equipment wrench spinning under my belt no amount of fabrication is daunting. Bottom line it’s all metal nuts and bolts, an engine is just a big fancy air pump. The more air it breathes in the more it breathes out. Consequently the exact recipe for horsepower: let it breath, let it breath, let it breath. First stage is high flow intake, second stage high flow exhaust, third stage internal work such as camshafts, valves, port and polish, stroke ect. All can be easily done with the know-how and done cheaply with some redneck ingenuity :grin: might be why my 83 toyota accrued a new heart many years ago of a fire breathing 383sbc. I can’t leave anything alone, I always need to tinker. And the more I read here, wood gas is a tinkermans wet dream

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Don iv seen that video I’m actually one of your subscribers on youtube

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Hello Marcus .

I believe if I were building your machine I would gasify it first and then after some length of time build and beef up the motor.

In doing so you would have a baseline to compare with the upgrade of the motor .

I think the possibility of taring up a motor is greater the first week of operation than the next 10 years of use .

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Hi wayne I have several of these motors kicking around right now this one needs a rebuild, piston rings are toast and low compression, but a bare bones rebuild is the minimum it needs at the moment. So would you suggest stock pistons and leave it carb for the first run?

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Hi Marcus

If you will be going into the motor anyway I think it would be easy to add to the C/R . Also I think fuel injection is best .

In the above post I wanted to stress making tare is more likely with a new gasifier because a good char bed needs to be established , the gasifier will insulate itself after a period of driving and a learning curve with the operators .

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Ok so bump compression and efi got it👍 that’s where I’ll start for the motor work thank you Wayne!

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Hi Marcus,
If you can get more compression that would be good. I also would suggest doing efi as Wayne mentioned. I’m not sure but I would think you would suck a carb dry when running on woodgas, and then when you would switch back to regular running you would either stall, or have lag time.
I would do the bare bones amount needed to freshen up that motor. If your as vrsed at them as you say you can do more mods later. I can’t stress enough that learning curve that has been mentioned and tar. I know I have had some of that stuff go into mine. Luckily no damage was done.
I have not driven my truck on wood for quite some time. It just sits here. Last winter it got a new fuel pump, and due to the fact that it is in the tank it got a new tank also. The old one was quite nasty inside and wasn’t cleaning up to well. And then as long as I had the tank all off I rebuilt the frame where it upturns behind the cab. You probably know well that is a typical area on the Yoda truck frames that likes to rot out. Mine wasn’t that bad. Just had about a half dollar size hole on each side on the inside of frame. Still I opened the tubular frame up quite a ways and rust treated and welding in reinforcing webbing and then replace the inner frame with all new steel heavier than what original was. Also replaced all the brake lines to the back as they run behind the tank and were close to being junk.
So like I said have not driven it for a while, and should probably tear the gasifier down and check things out. But when I did drive it a couple of key things I noticed is I would go through quite a bit of wood. IDK if it is because these engines are such high RPM engines to get the truck to go down the road at a good clip? Mine is also a 4wheel drive so there is that extra friction, weight, and things moving in the drive train. It’s got some pretty good size tires on it also. Not positive on the tire od, but bigger than stock I am sure as it’s got after market wheels. It’s been stressed many times across this forum as to why Wayne always used the Dakota’s; HP to weight ratio. That could be the other reason for high wood usage. I would try to maintain going down the road a 55mph on fuel that is (help me out guys) about 50% lower BTU value than dino fuel. I have an automatic transmission, so it loves to kick down running on wood because I have my foot big time on the pedal to keep speed up. This is where a manual would probably really help you.
So I guess I’m kinda rambling on. But with the knowledge I have so far with my truck (and mind you I know I have quite more I can learn if I would get back to driving it) I would suggest two wheel drive, with stock tire/wheel size. Fuel injected, with a manual trans. Keep your engine rebuild simple until you learn, and don’t make tar. And perhaps I would also suggest if your not afraid of cutting the bed either move the gas tank, or make a unit that mounts on the drivers side, so you can go through the bed so you can get a better size hopper without sticking way above the cab. I have quite a small hopper if you notice in the video, and it still sticks above the cab and catches wind. I didn’t want to cut a hole in the bed of the truck.
I will be happy to help you out with pictures of what my intake plenum looks like, and how I tied in the MAF.
I guess that’s enough for now: too much :slight_smile:
I’m still considering selling my truck btw. I vacillate back and forth. I tell myself “it just sit’s here and doesn’t get driven”, but then I think “what if the Zombie apocalypse happens”
David S

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I’ve owned Toyota 22re and 22r trucks and motorhomes since 1985. I understand your liking them I currently drive an 88 pickup with 22r. Back when I bought it 10 years ago I had the choice of rebuilding the truck into a 22r or 22re as it needed major repairs on the engine. Since no one had done a 22re conversion at the time - I chose the 22r route. David got his truck running shortly afterward and proved I’d made a mistake.
The Toyota 22re fuel system uses an air vane airflow sensor. It controls fuel flow entirely based on air flow through the sensor. If the sensor has no airflow through it - there is zero fuel delivered from the fuel injectors. No matter if the woodgas system supplies 100% of the engine’s needs or only 10%. The fuel from the injectors will match the airflow that passes through the sensor.
I forget what David figured out on the ignition timing and how that was controlled when the airflow sensor was not sensing flow. I seem to recall that the engine rpm took over.
I was saddened that David sold the system. I would have liked to buy it myself. He had done a nice job creating the conversion.

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Ron, We must have posted about the same time that you didn’t catch that I didn’t sell the system.
Marcus Ron has an interesting point about the MAF controlling the ignition timing. I didn’t know that the sensor position also controlled ignition timing. I have a pull cable on my distributor that I can rotate the distributor like many others do to advance timing, but I honestly have never noticed much if any difference when I did. I am pulling my air through the MAF so maybe it is still controlling my timing no matter what. I just shut found the wires for the injector circuit and the fuel pump and put a toggle switch in them to shut them off that’s how I controlled that part.
Maybe I am never really getting my timing dialed in when running on wood.
Perhaps you know more about how that part of the 22re system works better than I, and can actually help me. :slight_smile:
David

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Hi, I thought more of your statement of the fuel pump running on the cam. All of the cam driven pumps I can think of have the diaphragm pulled by the cam and spring pressure pushes the fuel out. If the fuel does not exit the pump - the actuating finger does not make much contact with the cam. Only when pumping full volume does the finger ride the cam extensively. You could simply place an electric or mechanical valve between the pump and the carburetor to shut off fuel.

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Morning MarcusN.
Most of the reason all are advising you as such is we-all here on the DOW can number off full handfuls of fellows got lost in the make-engine side of it and then never finished follow-though on the make&learn to use woodgasifier side of it.

Easy four cylinder SOHC eight-valve and I have all confidence you WILL follow through. I would not intentionally go so far as make it an interference engine for your first go-around.
Past the big engine book system look at Waynes well detailed out smaller IHC tractor system for later details. In the Premium side Projects section I believe.
Regards
Web-footer Steve Unruh

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Here is a an open-side link to pictures of WayneK’s first shown 4 cylinder engine system:

You can scroll up on that topic and read his trialing and decisions making. One post above this he links directly into his internals step by step building of it.
Scroll down and see him loading work it. Stills pictures and three videos.
And adding in his refinements; and use-proofed modifications.
S.U.

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David

Iv been very lucky so far for living on the coast and of the 30+ 79-95 toyotas I have had, only one had a rusted out frame and boy oh boy was I upset when I found it after owning the truck for a year attempting to restore it. Ultra rare 79 toyota trekker, number 201 produced. Any die hard toyota guys know how crazy rare those things are. I since donated it to a friend who had a short box frame to put it on and his dad is doing all the fiberglass repair to restore it to it’s former glory and title of the “forerunner”. Yes this first build will be a 2wd and under normal circumstances yes these 4bangers get rapped out constantly. Stock makes make peak power and trq at4500-5500 rpm, hence every rebuild I do I slap in a rv cam to give the truck a much more useable power range (1500-4500) I must admit I love the sound of rev limiter through a flow master muffler, but I’m realistic here; I don’t expect the full power of dino on wood in these already very under powered trucks. I know all to well the power that is robbed with lift kits and big tires my last wheeler 83 flatbed on 38x15x16 super swamper tsl lockers front and rear and geared 5.29 in the axles with 4.7 in the rear case stock gears in front case, heavy plate built bumpers rock sliders, and exocage was very heavy and gutless even when I built a hybrid 22/20 stroker motor with big nasty cam it was all it could do to do a weak burnout. Iv since limited my 4wd trucks to 35" tires and street legal and light weight. No problems cutting the bed either :+1:

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Ron

I’m very familiar with the afm, the cursed sensor of the 22re world. Here in the one, they have this nasty tendency for the seal stop the airbox to fail and during water and mud trails suck water in under vacuum blocking the commutator bars and give false throttle response and dead spots under load. It’s infuriating half way down a trail when you lose all throttle control beyond idle ask me how I know. You come around here and open 100 toyota hoods you will see 75 afm spoofed with silicone in attempts to not have it happen again. Pricey bugger to replace from the dealer to at 275$, aftermarket ones are nothing but trouble in my experience. Only sensor more troublesome on the re systems is the tps if it every fails, or it’s sister knock sensor fails and the same symtom occured, poor throttle response, high idle, dead spots during acceleration, or in some extreme cases I have seen the ecu pull timing back when the tps trips up. Had to adjust timing on the trail before to get the truck out of a canyon also very annoying

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